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May 9

Has served v has been serving..... since 1000 BC (lol)

Why are some editor saying that I can't write "He Has been serving as mayor since 2024" on politician page because its a Biography. I have to write "He has served as mayor since 2024" M1rrorCr0ss 10:59, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Why not a simple "He has been mayor..."?--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:10, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

A related issue is that '. . . serving . . .' is present tense, which might be true on the day that edit is made, but which may not be a week (or whatever) later, meaning the article will then be making an incorrect statement unless and until an editor (you?) remembers to correct/update it.

It would be better to use different phrasing, for example something like "He began serving as mayor in 2024 . . ." so that after he's stopped (for whatever reason), the sentence is not stating a falsehood.

For more details, see MOS:CURRENT and its on-links. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.101.226 (talk) 12:42, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Well, both forms are present perfect, so they imply that the serving started in the past and continues at present. That in itself is not a problem for Wikipedia, assuming that articles are regularly updated. I guess the issue is rather that the progressive aspect is simply unnecessary. Taken literally, the progressive aspect conveys the notion that the serving is continuous and uninterrupted by weekends and vacations or even a good nights sleep. The non-progressive form is perfectly adequate to describe the situation and is simpler. --Wrongfilter (talk) 13:43, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Claiming that a politician has actually been "serving" could be a POV violation. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:48, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I assumed that becoming a mayor involved extra servings of weekends and vacations! Gammon fritters, anyone? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:50, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Why isn’t there a laughing react on Wikipedia? I’d be using it way too much! M1rrorCr0ss 14:07, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Like this? 🤣 ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:28, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Appears as a little rectangle on my screen. You could try some old-school typed emojis like this :D or :-) Alansplodge (talk) 22:13, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Or actually, in this case (-; as in a smiley with tears from laughter. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:05, 10 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Kashmiri_language#Gender

Hello,

Could someone explain how a word like "basket" can have a masculine and feminine form in Kashmiri? It doesn't seem to make much sense in English, but perhaps it's not this exact meaning in that language?

Thank you 87.88.155.10 (talk) 19:30, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If we knew the Kashmiri forms we might (perhaps) give a specific explanation, but it is by itself not unusual that a term for something inanimate has several genders in some gendered language. For example, German Brezel is most commonly masculine but can also be neuter, and its Frenchified form bretzel can be masculine and feminine. Another ambigender French term is the slang word clope ("cigarette"). Dutch terms with multiple genders include matras ("mattress") and schilderij ("painting"). Latin flasco ("bottle") can be masculine and feminine, and so can Ancient Greek ληΐς ("booty"). ‑‑Lambiam 21:56, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Lambiam: Yes, I know but here there are two different forms – one masculine and one feminine – for the same inanimate object, whereas all the other examples given are either living beings or adjectives changing forms according to the gender of the noun. 87.88.155.10 (talk) 22:24, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It's often dialectal. Dutch meer ("lake") is usually neuter, but in the Amsterdam dialect it's (if I understood correctly) common gender, which is the union of masculine and feminine. I suppose feminine schilderij is dialectal too, as the word appears overwhelmingly neuter. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:29, 10 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Just for the record, "Brezel" is usually female in German (as the Wiktionary page correctly states). —Kusma (talk) 11:43, 13 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I know nothing about Kashmiri, so like Lambiam's this is another slight digression, but Italian has lots of pairs of words, one masculine and one feminine, meaning the same or closely related things. Sometimes it's systematic, like with tree fruits, where the the tree is masculine and the fruit is feminine (melo/mela "apple", pero/pera "pear", ciliegio/ciliegia "cherry"). Sometimes it's a one-off that doesn't seem to generalize (cera wax, cero ~~waxen figure~~ large ceremonial votive candle). Sometimes it's really confusing, like tavolo/tavola, which both translate as "table" but are not exact synonyms, and I go crazy trying to remember when you use each of them. And sometimes they're exact synonyms (mattino/mattina, "morning"). --Trovatore (talk) 22:36, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Even more fun: Lots of words that come from the Latin second declension neuter are masculine in the singular but feminine in the plural, and the plural ends in -a rather than the more usual -i (masculine) or -e (feminine). Uovo/uova "egg(s)", labbro/labbra "lip(s)", lenzuolo/lenzuola "sheet(s)", as in on a bed. Some of these have the extra twist that the feminine plural is used only for a matched pair, whereas the generic plural is masculine. --Trovatore (talk) 22:44, 9 May 2025 (UTC) [reply]

I see, there are also examples in French, like jour and journée that, while not being strictly synonymous, have senses close to each other. 87.88.155.10 (talk) 22:54, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That one has an exact counterpart in Italian, giorno/giornata, and the difference in meaning is also the same, as near as I can tell. Roughly un giorno is a time interval, whereas una giornata is what you did with that time. I think that's more or less the same in French? --Trovatore (talk) 22:58, 9 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In Spanish, the word "papa" when used with a feminine definite article ("la papa") means "the potato", but when used with a masculine definite article ("el papa") means "the pope". --Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:44, 10 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In Spanish, "la papa" derives from the Quechua word for potato, while "el papa" comes from Greek via Latin, the same source as "papá" meaning "father". As an aside, "la" vs. "el" vaguely speaks to the hypothesis that "la" refers to naturally-occurring things while "el" refers to man-made things. The la and el meanings could comverge if they were ever to make a Mr. Potato Head icon of the Pope. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:02, 10 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This Kashmiri dictionary [1] has "phọ̆t^u: m. a moderately large kind of basket used for holding paddy; such a basket full of paddy; so much paddy as will fill such a basket." and "phŏt^ür^ü: f. a small kind of basket for carrying paddy; such a basket filled with paddy; so much paddy as will fill such a basket. (These baskets are plastered over with mud.)". Other words for different kinds of basket are also listed. Apparently Kashmiri has a rich vocabulary relating to baskets, with some fine distinctions. —Amble (talk) 22:19, 10 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I come to think of the Spanish distinction between "la barca" (smaller boat) and "el barco" (bigger boat). 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 17:50, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Or more to the point wikt:cesta/wikt:cesto and wikt:canasta/wikt:canasto. The masculine form si usually bigger thatn the feminine. In wikt:baloncesto ("basketball") you score a canasta but, according to the DLE, cesta, cesto and canasta are applicable to the basketball basket. I never heard it called a canasto but I wouldn't deny any dialect uses it.

--Error (talk) 10:45, 13 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

May 10

"Purdue" with a Russian accent?

A 1984 article in Sports Illustrated profiled Max Blank, a basketball player who was a Jewish immigrant from the Soviet Union (specifically Odessa, Ukraine). He was recruited by many colleges. The article said that his mother was "concerned when letters came from Purdue and Drake; both words have an unsavory meaning when pronounced with a Russian accent." I recognize that "Drake" could be pronounced like dreck / дрек / דרעק (meaning "crap"), but what Russian, Yiddish, or Ukrainian unsavory word does "Purdue" correspond to? -- Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:40, 10 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure if it's this, but there's пердун (perdún) which sounds somewhat similar and means "someone who farts". GalacticShoe (talk) 04:30, 10 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, that seems like a plausible explanation. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 20:15, 10 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

May 11

No Navajo language classes? Why is this not visible on United States?

Hello there, is there a reason on why are not there Navajo language classes common in schools? Why are Native American languages not seen anywhere on United States? Why are they mostly limited to reservation areas or cultural centers? Can anyone explain please? 2600:387:15:4915:0:0:0:5 (talk) 12:31, 11 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not entirely sure myself but I think it has something to do with the significance of Native American culture in the US, and how we as Americans see it. Gommeh ➡️ Talk to me 12:33, 11 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Why Navajo? It has only 170,000 speakers, compared with millions of speakers of some of the other thousand or so Indigenous languages of the Americas. Shantavira|^{feed me} 17:14, 11 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think this may be because of the well-known use of Navajo in WWII by code talkers. Of course, Navajo was chosen exactly because it had so few native speakers and there was only one published study of the language, all the copies of which could be located and confiscated from US academic libraries. Alansplodge (talk) 18:08, 11 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Would the code talking still have any significance? I would rather assume it's due to Navajo lacking both soft and hard power. It is of little practical usage outside of the core community, and there are no significant econonomic payoff, if you would go through the trouble of learning a language significantly different from English. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:25, 11 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

A little fact that may or may not be true, but sticks around in my head, is that Navajo is one of the hardest languages for Anglophones to learn. "Essentially unlearnable after childhood" is the exact phrase that sticks in my head. --Trovatore (talk) 22:34, 11 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that does seem to be true. "Research indicated that...after the age of around thirteen it would be virtually impossible for an Anglo to learn the Navajo language." [2] --Antiquary (talk) 16:04, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It seems exaggerated, considering that foreigners could learn languages such as Japanese, Chinese and Arabic. It's difficult, but it can be done. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 17:52, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It may be the case, though, that the Navajo language is much more difficult to learn than Japanese, Chinese and Arabic, both its pronunciation and its grammar. ‑‑Lambiam 19:55, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'm waiting for someone to respond "challenge...accepted". Mildly tempted myself but Arabic seems more useful. --Trovatore (talk) 21:20, 12 May 2025 (UTC) [reply]

To me, I would recommend Hungarian or Vietnamese languages. They are complex, but less than Navajo. 205.155.225.249 (talk) 18:16, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

At the same time, I would mention Hindu, Rapa Nui, and Korean, due to large structure. 2600:1700:78EA:450:4537:9DB6:C80C:63DD (talk) 09:48, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Trovatore Yes, Code talkers do have a significance here. 2600:1700:78EA:450:4537:9DB6:C80C:63DD (talk) 09:45, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In a recent visit to a local museum, I discovered that Google Translate was refusing to speak Navajo to me, and refusing to translate into or out of that language. Despite having knowledge of other indigeneous tongues such as Nahuatl.

And I was led to the same conclusion, that this has something to do with the Code Talkers and the sensitivity, to this day, of the secret codes which they safeguarded. Perhaps Navajo is a difficult language, but I did not encounter trouble finding a lexicon or two in the library of my local research university, and native speakers are likewise easy to find near me.

So the only way I could explain Google's omission is that it is still a sensitive issue of national security. 2600:8800:1E8F:BE00:B56F:F4D0:96B7:6CDF (talk) 21:26, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It seems very unlikely to me. If I go to translate.google.com and click the language dropdown button, I see six columns of around forty languages each, so call it 250 languages total. Our Navajo language article says that it has about 170,000 speakers who use it at home. According to this link, the 100th most spoken language, Sanaani Spoken Arabic, still has 11 million native speakers. So it seems plausible that Navajo is not in the top 250, or even if it is, it might be that there's not enough training data available for the AI stack. That explanation seems a lot more plausible than the idea that there is still sensitive information in code-talker format that people would be able to understand if only Google would translate it for them. (Note as well that Navajo-based code talking was rather far removed from natural Navajo language.) --Trovatore (talk) 22:12, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

GT does translate Manx though, which according to our article is spoken by 23 people as their first language and 2,200 as their second. That suggests that the number of speakers isn't GT's primary concern when choosing languages. --Antiquary (talk) 11:10, 13 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

A more likely concern is the potential level of use. The Isle of Man is a popular tourist destination, and adds Manx to public signage (Manx being an official language there alongside English), so many visitors will want to translate Manx out of interest, aside from Manx learners (it's taught in schools) wanting to utilise the app. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.170.37 (talk) 15:43, 13 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

When you get down to these more obscure languages I doubt we can expect a fully strategic approach even on the part of a giant like Google. It could come down to whether there's an engineer who wants to take it on as a 20% project or something, getting the corpus together and training the model. --Trovatore (talk) 18:06, 13 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That is why I'm into obscure languages, if not saved enough, then it would cause the language to be endangered. 2600:1700:78EA:450:4537:9DB6:C80C:63DD (talk) 09:49, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Which languages native to North America have a million speakers? —Tamfang (talk) 00:16, 13 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Just Nahuatl, I think. (Remember that North America goes all the way to Panama.) --Trovatore (talk) 00:56, 13 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, also, Kʼicheʼ language and Qʼeqchiʼ language, which appear to be related but distinct, if our articles can be relied on. They have 1.1M and 1.3M respectively. Google Translate appears to support Qʼeqchiʼ but not Kʼicheʼ, so maybe the line is around there (or maybe there is no exact line; they just support what they can easily support). Anyway they both have many times more speakers than Navajo, which for 2600's comparison has about as many home speakers as the population of Tempe. I don't think we need to bring in spycraft to explain why GT doesn't support Navajo, despite its considerable cultural importance in the American Southwest. --Trovatore (talk) 01:54, 13 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Navajo is the most spoken indigenous language in the United States, but it has essentially no cultural cachet and has never been learned by many people except members of the Navajo Nation. Like many Native Americans the Navajo are often stereotyped as lazy, stupid, and prone to alcoholism, and having been betrayed so often by Anglo promises of help are not especially welcoming of outsiders. Many/most Navajo learn English in school and use it to communicate with others. I doubt the language is actually harder for English speakers than Chinese or other tonal, non-Indo-European languages, but I've never really studied it. With limited demand from potential language learners, and limited supply in the form of native speakers trained to teach (especially in places of any size) there is no real way for formal classes to get off the ground. Eluchil404 (talk) 22:54, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you, but how would this impact on the ethnicity, if there are no stereotypes?

Why do they still learn English though? 205.155.225.249 (talk) 21:24, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Why would they? Some folks take up a new language out of curiousity, but most of them do so for more practical reasons such as travel, immigration, business, etc. which would rarely apply here. Matt Deres (talk) 13:54, 13 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You absolutely nailed it, there is a reason on why languages are used differently. 2600:1700:78EA:450:2406:5A80:A2E8:410D (talk) 17:00, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It's worth mentioning that this is hardly unique to Navajo. Language teaching and learning overwhelmingly focusses on a small number of languages with a lot of speakers. Whether it's for travel, or for business, or just to enjoy foreign language films, the main consideration is how many people speak it, and how that intersects with your holiday plans/business relationships/tastes in movies.

Minority languages tend to only get taught if there's a government promoting them. Welsh e.g. has the strong support of authorities in Wales, who stopped and reversed its decline partly through education. Other examples include Basque and Catalan supported by their own regional governments. Or even French in Quebec (French is hardly in danger of extinction but it might not be still spoken in Canada without Quebec's promotion of it).

In theory this could happen in the US; US states have a similar amount of autonomy to their Spanish or Canadian counterparts. But invading Europeans were efficient at wiping out the native population, driving them off their lands which they then carved up among themselves. When the US govt. eventually recognised them it was as nations separate from the 50 states, independent with no role in state or federal government.--2A04:4A43:904F:FAD8:103A:AAF3:3656:D93 (talk) 23:53, 12 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In Ireland the Gaeltacht was in danger of being wiped out before the government stepped in. 2A01:4B00:B70B:B000:A714:E8E5:E04D:80E0 (talk) 15:23, 13 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Alansplodge @Antiquary @Eluchil404 @Gommeh @Lambiam @Matt Deres @Shantavira @Tamfang I wanted you people to discover and research on if the Navajo language is still used today. As of 2025, Navajo is made into official language on the Navajo Nation. As of 2024, Duolingo has Navajo courses and first movie, Star Wars, dubbed the film into indigenous languages. Could the same goes with Cherokee? And further than that, how could this language grow into numbers again? I see this Wikipedia has the project dedicated into Navajo language. But I'm never sure about other social media sites, featuring and supporting this type of language. 205.155.225.249 (talk) 18:20, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There are conservation efforts going on in America for certain tribal languages, but I'm not too familiar on the subject and am not really that interested in it so I don't know the specifics. Gommeh ➡️ Talk to me 18:41, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

What conservation efforts going on in America to make for? 205.155.225.249 (talk) 18:46, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Could this be the same with Alaska Native languages? 2600:1700:78EA:450:4537:9DB6:C80C:63DD (talk) 09:47, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think, it might be the same with Alaska Native languages. 2600:1700:78EA:450:75E5:23D1:5B65:DBB4 (talk) 05:08, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

May 13

Subjects of sentences beginning with "Unlike P, Q"

I support that in any sentence beginning with the prepositional phrase "Unlike P" must have a subject Q that parallels the P. Example:

Incorrect: Let's learn to play poker. Unlike some card games, there is no ranking with suits.

Correct: Let's learn to play poker. Unlike some card games, poker has no ranking with suits.

(For anyone who wants to respond to this post, please check out the recent edit I made to the Roulette article.) Is this rule proscribed by many grammarians?? Georgia guy (talk) 23:31, 13 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

They both work, but your second example is better, i.e. clearer. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:49, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It is certainly not a rule that is followed assiduously:

Unlike what we have seen in Russia and in the current repression of the media and Internet shutdowns in Belarus, we do not block access to the internet, and people in our country are free to express and disseminate their views both online and offline.^[3]
Unlike the situation with respect to the trading of goods and services across national boundaries, some might argue that the parameters of the so-called "international technology market "remain vague and ill defined.^[4]
Unlike last year, supplies of baler twine and wire are expected to be more than adequate this year.^[5]

‑‑Lambiam 07:13, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Technically, you're spot on, imo. In the incorrect version, the 2nd sentence has to be read in conjunction with its 1st sentence, otherwise it's not referring to anything in particular, not even, necessarily, to a card game. In the correct version, the 2nd sentence works fine as it is. However, in common discourse, nobody would misunderstand the incorrect version. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:29, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The first sentence exhibits one of the many forms of Ellipsis (linguistics) which is common in many languages, particularly when spoken. (Here, "in poker" has been omitted). Usually, although words omitted in ellipses might be required by strict rules of grammar, actually inserting them can often seem pedantic and would become tedious. Many uses of ellipsis are considered acceptably grammatical. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.170.37 (talk) 18:06, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Being the pedant that I am, I feel an urge to point out that if we seek to make the pre-elision sentence fully grammatical, we need to insert one more word:

Unlike in some card games, there is no ranking with suits in poker.

‑‑Lambiam 19:26, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Still elided. "Unlike the case in some card games, in poker there is no ranking in suits. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.170.37 (talk) 20:54, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That is, IMO, a disimprovement. ‑‑Lambiam 09:17, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

An exprovement? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:12, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Similarly, I often change As with to Like because with does not belong. (I imagine some writers remember being scolded for using like.) —Tamfang (talk) 20:17, 19 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Tamfang, can you give me an example of when you avoid "as with" and an example where you use "as with"?? Georgia guy (talk) 20:18, 19 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

An example with which, as with misleading punctuation, I took issue: Mathematics and architecture are related, since, as with other arts, architects use mathematics for several reasons. which makes me curious about architects' use of mathematics with other arts. —Tamfang (talk) 03:55, 20 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

May 14

New words coined in 2020s

Since the technology and revolution has advanced, there are new words coined. Although I agree that old words have new meanings, there are words that are coined in recent times. But aside from COVID-19, which is an actual neologism, and this pandemic have accelerated the new words coined rapidly in 2020, are there any new words that are coined and invented in decade of 2020s, and if so, can you list them? To me, new words are necessary to keep the English language ongoing, and words are what define the real world. But including all the aspects of the topic, which are technology, culture, science, politics, religion, philosophy, military, laws, history, arts, and finally literature, can you make an explanation on why are newer words coined in 2020s, are way too difficult to detect and notice, and what happens if its trending? Where could you find the new words coined in 2020s? Thank you if you if you would answer my question, since mine is informative. 205.155.225.249 (talk) 18:58, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I googled "new words in 2024" and found quite a few references. You could do likewise for the years 2020 onward. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:28, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I searched it up too. But I wanted to see that if these type of words are attested. But, what are the words that are in first used in 2020s? 205.155.225.249 (talk) 20:03, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what you mean by "attested" but hundreds of new words were added to dictionaries during that time, so it's quicker and simpler to do a web search. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:54, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You can find many examples in this search: [6]. ‑‑Lambiam 09:10, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Respelling

Why an /aɪ̯/ sound at the beginning of world is respelled as eye, not as y? For example, why is item respelled as EYE-təm and not as Y-təm? And why is an /aɪ̯/ sound at monosyllabic words before a consonant respelled with silent e, such as tight being TYTE and not TYT? --40bus (talk) 22:05, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Y by itself is not pronounced like a long I. EYE is pronounced like a long I. and TYTE would be pronounced with a long I, while TYT would probably be pronounced with a short I. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:35, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That long I is called like that because in Middle English it used to be /iː/, an actual long i. In the Great Vowel Shift it diphthongised via /ɛɪ̯/ to /aɪ̯/. In German it still has the initial value, in Dutch it got stuck at the intermediate. Y used to be /y/, unrounded to /i/ or (lax) /ɪ/, but thanks to frequent borrowing became a complete mess. The name of the letter became /waɪ̯/. That's why it isn't good for respelling item as Y-təm.

About that silent e: words like tide used to have two syllables: ti-de /ˈtiː.də/. The middle consonant was in the second syllable, making the first syllable open, leading to a free vowel. Without the final e, there's only one syllable and the vowel is (by default) checked. This rule is still used in Dutch. In English, the final /ə/ was dropped in speech, not in spelling, but the first vowel retained its free sound, leading to a spelling pattern where a single consonant followed by a word-final e indicates that the preceding vowel is free.

In the word tight something special happened. It used to be something like /tɪxt/ (in modern Dutch it's dicht /dɪxt/), with a checked vowel, but deletion of the /x/ in stages (from speech, not from spelling) caused the vowel to change to its free form.

Clear as mud? That's English spelling. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:25, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Bugs's explanation of eye above is basically correct. The World Book Encyclopedia, intended for young readers, uses a respelling system that is quite similar to ours, and it also uses eye for an /aɪ̯/ constituting an entire syllable; but to avoid confusion it doesn't include silent e's in respellings, so it would indeed respell tight as "TYT". I don't know why it was felt necessary for our system to go with "TYTE". Deor (talk) 22:59, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

May 15

How could a new technology shape the English language?

As we shifted from Industrial Revolution, to Technical Revolution, and to Digital Revolution, how would new words keep up if the world was rapidly changing? How fast this technology advanced? What impact on social lives do we have as a result of new technology? 2600:1700:78EA:450:4537:9DB6:C80C:63DD (talk) 09:51, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Which high school class are these questions coming from? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:29, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Out of curiosity. 2600:1700:78EA:450:2406:5A80:A2E8:410D (talk) 16:39, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

My personal take is that the opposite is occurring. Humanity (as a culture) is regressing towards nostalgia and the past, and while it might feel like things are advancing, they really aren't. No major issue facing humanity has been solved or mitigated; new technologies more than ever don't advance us forward, but are in fact based on older ideas that simply monetize their value in new ways and concentrate more power and wealth in fewer hands. We are regressing and backsliding in almost every respect. I've often said that we need new ideas to see the world differently, and with the decline in pure research, pure art, and pure education for the sake of education, we can no longer think in newer and different ways. This in part explains the yearning for past models, and the safety of conservatism for many people, a power relationship that emphasizes top down leadership from strongmen and relieves the general public from having to expend cognitive energy on introspection and criticism, allowing them to outsource their knowledge, experience, and ultimately intelligence to others. Viriditas (talk) 00:11, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You got it, humanity is not just evolving, but linguistics and languages. There is a reason on why new words, best known as neologisms, are very necessary to keep the culture going and relevant at the same time. In my opinion, knowledge with new ideas, are a key to building a improved society and humanity, because of the value and life. 2600:1700:78EA:450:75E5:23D1:5B65:DBB4 (talk) 05:16, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Like it says at the top of this page, "We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate." AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:32, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

When new things (which may be physical items, new processes, or just abstract ideas) are invented, their inventors, or sometimes users, either invent new words for them, or assign additional new meanings to existing words. Since one can't really use, talk about or often even think about a new thing without having something to call it, the creation of the new (or repurposing of old) words automatically keeps pace. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.170.37 (talk) 17:04, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

ASL vs. subtitles in film and television

I am not fluent in ASL, but I think I understand the basic differences between ASL and subtitles. What I'm curious about is how easy or difficult it is to engage in with film or television based on one or the other. Let's assume for the sake of this argument, that the audience is fluent in both. Half the audience has ASL as their first language and the other half English as their first. I think we can all agree that basic subtitles don't have the emotional content and require a delicate balance between reading and watching. What I'm curious about is how this balance works with ASL. I just tried watching an episode of The Last of Us with ASL and another with subtitles, and from my POV, both of them distracted me from the presentation. How does Deaf culture deal with this? Do they have a more developed sense of attention? Viriditas (talk) 23:02, 15 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Would that mean an interpretation function similar to this? [7] 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:41, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You can see a screenshot from the show with ASL here: [8] Viriditas (talk) 22:32, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

What I meant was, technically, I'd assume the function has another term than just ASL; in Swedish it's "teckenspråkstolkning", lit. "sign language interpretation". 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 02:30, 20 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Even without sound, subtitles or signing, much of the emotional experience derives from the facial expressions, gestures, attitudes and other behavioural aspects of the acting. Obviously, the emotive colouring of the spoken text adds to that, but with good actors this is perhaps even the least important aspect.

I regularly watch subtitled films and experience no trouble following both the action and the subtitling. I can't speak for the deaf community, but it is reasonable to assume that one gets very adept at following the action while at the same time following the signing. ‑‑Lambiam 21:28, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Subtitled films are not a problem as long as there is no action. My question concerns the overall appreciation of the story and the attention required for ASL. It's obvious that ASL is superior to subtitles, but I have questions about its accuracy and interpretation. Subtitles don't have the emotional overaly, but they are, by and large more neutral and objective. Viriditas (talk) 22:34, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

One advantage of subtitles is that they can be understood by unAmerican deaf people, which by and large ASL cannot. DuncanHill (talk) 21:31, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I've heard that ASL is on the verge of becoming an international signed lingua franca, though. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:20, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'm curious about learning it. Where's a good place to start? Viriditas (talk) 22:35, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

May 16

Is there any usage of Brainrot?

Block evasion

The following discussion has been closed by Lambiam. Please do not modify it.

Hello there, when I was browsing on the brainrot article, I had discovered that this term dates back to 1854. Thoreau was critical on what he saw decline in intellectual standards. But it was never used commonly, until the launch of the Internet. It only had its use in 2004, when the term "brain rot" was used by Twitter users to describe dating game shows. However, this is rare and unseen by me until mid-2020s. It had a use increased in 2010s and in early 2020s, trending in discord. But since 2023, this term is gotten so mainstream, that it earned a spot in the dictionary. This term refers to not only low quality or value, but to memes in some cases. In fact, this applies to younger audience, who consume content not regarded as the best quality. Can you please explain on what is the usage of this term before 2020s? Is there evidence that the word is discovered or documents in 19th and 20th centuries? Thank you again if you reply to me and answer my question. (Note: this is not a homework question or intended to debate) 2600:1700:78EA:450:75E5:23D1:5B65:DBB4 (talk) 05:33, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Go ahead and ...

When someone with an American accent is demonstrating on a video how they cook a recipe, what I've often heard is that with each step they don't just say "Now I'll add the eggs" or "Here we stir the pot till boiling" or whatever, but it's: "Now I'll go ahead and add the eggs", then "Here I'll go ahead and stir the mixture till it's smooth", then "Now I'll go ahead and let it rest for an hour", followed by "Now I'll go ahead and take it out of the oven", and "Now I'll go ahead and ...".

It seems they've gone ahead 20 times in the course of the demo. It sounds odd to my ears, as telling someone to go ahead is usually a sign that permission is being granted. But a cook can hardly be giving themself permission, can they?

Is this a nation-wide American idiosyncracy? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 09:07, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I just saw an Australian cooking segment on a show where the presenter (cooking some special donuts) said Try and get them them into the sugar while they're still hot.. The and seems wrong to me. Surely it should be to. HiLo48 (talk) 09:35, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

OED shows that try and has been in use since 1686, so I think we'll have to accept, reluctantly or not, that it's correct English, long and common usage being the only test for these things. --Antiquary (talk) 09:59, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The Cambridge Dictionary of American Idioms (Page 150) has the primary meaning of "go ahead" as "to begin or continue an activity without waiting". Your permissive definition comes second. Alansplodge (talk) 16:58, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I've always been dubious of objections to "try and". Quite apart from any descriptivist argument that its valid simply because it has been used for centuries and everyone knows what it means, I've often felt that "try and" has something of an implication that success is expected (or at least probable). Iapetus (talk) 10:52, 20 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds fine (if a bit redundant) to my Canadian ears. Also, "go ahead" doesn't imply asking permission to me. Saying it 20 times is a bit much, though. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:18, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I would say these expressions are associated with the American south. Another one is "take and". Another variant is "go and".[9] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:00, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

And "Try and Stop Me ". Wiktionary defines this use of and as:

(now dialectal or somewhat colloquial) Used to connect two verbs where the second is dependent on the first: ‘to’. Used especially after come, go and try. [from 14th c.]

I agree this is somewhat colloquial, but I question that this use of and is dialectal. ‑‑Lambiam 11:50, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a nation-wide American idiosyncracy? No. There are 12 varieties of English in the US. People in New York and San Francisco can barely understand each other. That's why I'm trying to learn ASL. Some things like the Bronx cheer are universal. Viriditas (talk) 23:19, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Those 12 varieties are not spelled out in American English. What's your source, Viriditas? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:59, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I was joking. Surely my comment about learning ASL to bridge the gap between CA and NY was a hint? Viriditas (talk) 23:45, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

PBS says "Social scientists estimate the number of U.S. dialects range from a basic three - New England, Southern and Western/General America - to 24 or more". I remember as a child not knowing what a "Bronx cheer" was. I must have been 8 or 9 when I discovered it was a raspberry. DuncanHill (talk) 00:09, 18 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Except for dialects (location), there are sociolects (class) and ethnolects (ethnicity), though. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:27, 18 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"Go ahead and..." sounds southern to me (US English speaker). "Take and..." is more Bahston. 2601:644:8581:75B0:A6C3:D267:84F9:123E (talk) 23:17, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Pythagoras

Can anyone tell me the literal meaning of the name "Pythagoras" (assuming there is one)? My Google Fu has failed me. Shantavira|^{feed me} 12:29, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Everything I can find with cursory google search indicates it's a combination of Pythios (as in Apollo Pythios) and the Greek word agora which means a gathering or marketplace. Though looking at the page for Delphi (which Apollo Pythios is the patrod deity of) I see that Delphi was known in a legend as Pytho (which involved the serpent Python which in turn results in Pythia being the title of the high priestess of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi. Most of these articles mention that these pyth- names are derived from the verb πύθω meaning "to rot", "which refers to the sickly sweet smell from the decomposing body of the monstrous Python after it was slain by Apollo." 13:20, 16 May 2025 (UTC) Amstrad00 (talk) 13:20, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

According to both Aristoxenus (as cited by Diogenes Laërtius, Lives of the Eminent Philosophers) and Porphyry of Tyre (The Life of Pythagoras), Pythagoras learned much from the Pythia, named as Themistokleia by Diogenes Laërtius^[10] and Aristokleia by Porphyry.^[11] Another thing is that according to some legends his mother was named Pythaïs, and that the Pythia prophesied to Pythaïs about her future eminent child.

I can't help but thinking that this is all etymology-after-the-fact. ‑‑Lambiam 20:54, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks guys. Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:44, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I do wish for a list of common name-elements in Greek! —Tamfang (talk) 20:28, 19 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thailand / Thai language audio translation request

Hi, if you speak Thailand language or possess a tool that automatically translates, could you please watch https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1HtrBk7t5i/ and tell me how they discovered the e-waste. Was it a 'routine' or 'random' inspection. How does it work. How often do they do it. Thank you :-) Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 21:14, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

And on what date did they do the inspection and discover the illegal e-waste? Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 21:15, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

They said it was part of their ongoing surveillance and risk profiling, but did not elaborate. They said they have periodically found violations, but this one is the largest seizure this year so far. No daye was mentioned. --Paul_012 (talk) 04:42, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This English-language news article reports that it was "found Tuesday in a random inspection". ‑‑Lambiam 11:28, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

To all you Nordic guys named Sven: If your name can be Sven, then can my name be Eght? (Also, why did Reddit shadow-suspend my account over just this post there?)

Is Eght a valid name anywhere in the world much like how Sven is in the Nordics?

What if I made Eght my nickname only for when I'm around guys named Sven?

Where and in which countries is Eght a normal given name? To all of you named Sven: If you met a guy *actually* named Eght, what would your reactions be like?

S(e)ven crossposts, in order to keep up with the Seven / 7 / Sven theme:

r/NameNerds: r/namenerds/s/gDLfQYlJpU
r/NordicCountries: r/Nordiccountries/s/6Ut24lbU6v
r/Norway: r/Norway/s/23FiXcvjiI
r/Sweden: r/sweden/s/VPYE1ognh7
r/Unket: (A technical difficulty kept me from posting there.)
r/Finland: r/Finland/s/3LOvuBrKYo
r/Denmark: r/Denmark/s/tDMecViB3J

---

ADDENDUM for the Wikipedia reference desk: Why did Reddit shadow-suspend my account and remove every last comment and post I've ever made on it, just for making 7 cross-posts of the same above topic?

Now that my username there cannot be used anymore, it was u/TheresJustNoMoney. I don't mind sharing my username elsewhere like here now, for that very reason. --2600:100A:B054:FB6F:DC3A:927F:EEE9:84B2 (talk) 21:20, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note that Sven is unrelated to 7. In the languages mentioned in that article's introduction, 7 is da:Syv, no:sju, and nn:sju. Nyttend (talk) 08:18, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Although the question is borderline trolling, similar to asking an anglophone how strange it is that someone could be named Otto when it means "eight" in Italian, I feel like mentioning the 'Golden Age' comics creator Sven Elvén. Not his birth name, but it does at least appear to be older than the convenience store chain. [12], [13], [14] 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:02, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

May 17

威寧彝族回族苗族自治縣

How do I interpret the name of Weining Yi, Hui, and Miao Autonomous County? Is this an autonomous county by the name of "Weining Yi, Hui, and Miao", or is it a Yi, Hui, and Miao Autonomous County by the name of "Weining", or is it the Weining Yi section of "Hui and Miao Autonomous County"? The article title sounds like the first option, the infobox sounds like the second, and the first sentence of the main text sounds like the third. Nyttend (talk) 08:15, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Must be the second of your options. Weining (威宁) is the name of the main town and county seat; "Autonomous County" (zìzhìxiàn, 自治縣) is its administrative status; and "Yi" (彝), Hui (回) and "Miao" (苗) are three ethnicities presumably living there, who are the subjects of its autonomy status. Note that in the long name you quoted in the title, the three characters for "Yi", "Hui" and "Miao" are each followed by 族 (zú), the term for "ethnicity" or "tribe". The shorter version of the county name given in the infobox is just "威宁县", Wēiníng xiàn, i.e. "Weining county" (县 and 縣 being the simplified and traditional versions of the same word). Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:27, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'd parse it symbolically as "Weining (Yi + Hui + Miao) Autonomous County", until 1954 officially just "Weining County" (威宁县), still a common abbreviation. The French Wikipedia uses "le xian yi, hui et miao de Weining", meaning "the Yi, Hui and Miao autonomous county of [i.e. "known as"] Weining" – rather explicitly the second option. BTW, the character 縣 in the Chinese spelling in the heading of this section is the traditional one. The official spelling in China uses the simplified character 县 also for the full name. ‑‑Lambiam 11:10, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thousands separator apostrophe in English

I just discovered Guns, germs and steel. A short history of everybody for the last 13'000 years. Is there any anglophone context (other than learners wrongly importing foreign conventions) in which an apostrophe is used as a thousands separator? Thousands separator mentions the use of an apostrophe but doesn't say in which regions or languages it's used. Nyttend (talk) 20:40, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find an Anglophone example, but see Decimal_separator#Examples_of_use. DuncanHill (talk) 20:50, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The book covers that I can find (for the original and later UK paperback editions) have "13,000", with a comma as the separator. Where did you see an apostrophe in the UK subtitle?

According to the German Wikipedia, Switzerland uses either a nonbreaking space or a (straight) apostrophe for the thousands separator. The instructions given by the Federal Chancellery of Switzerland for the preparation of official texts in French explicitly forbid the use of the apostrophe,^[15] thereby implying it is used. ‑‑Lambiam 23:04, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

C++ uses apostrophe, maybe because other characters would have caused problems. The feature was added in C++14 and it was important to not break pre-existing code. 2601:644:8581:75B0:A6C3:D267:84F9:123E (talk) 23:13, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Unless it is clear from the context that a number is a natural number, writing e.g. 12345 as either "12.345" or "12,345" is asking for trouble also in texts in plain natural language. ‑‑Lambiam 12:16, 18 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

When the context is the English language in day-to-day settings, "12 345" would be confusing. I've never seen any usage other than "12,345" in English texts written for day-to-day purposes; "12.345" is restricted to non-English usage, and "12 345" is restricted to technical contexts and discussions about punctuation. Nyttend (talk) 20:11, 18 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. However, I think we're still unclear about the apostrophe version you mentioned in the OP. Our article says the title of the work mentioned is "Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies (subtitled A Short History of Everybody for the Last 13,000 Years in Britain)...". The redirect you used was created by a sockpuppet (one of literally hundreds) of a banned user. A cursory glance suggests they got interested in that book for a day in 2016. If that's the only place you've seen the apostrophe number separator, I think you can safely ignore it. Matt Deres (talk) 18:58, 19 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Le Sueur

Among other things, Le Sueur is a brand of canned vegetables in the US, but it is also a not-that-rare French surname. Per Wiktionary, wikt:sueur means sweat or perspiration. Is that really the origin of this name? Asking because of the canned vegetables. Thanks. 2601:644:8581:75B0:A6C3:D267:84F9:123E (talk) 23:09, 17 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The canned vegetables are named for Le Sueur, Minnesota, where the canning company was located, which was named for a French explorer. I doubt that the surname came from the word for sweat, since that's feminine in gender (la sueur). I'm finding some indication that its an occupational surname from an obsolete term meaning "shoemaker". Deor (talk) 00:36, 18 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If, on that first disambiguation page you linked, you click under Other uses on the link Le Sueur (surname), you will find a list of Articles about people with that surname. At the bottom is a collapsed box which, when expanded, gives an array of "Surnames associated with the occupations of cobbler / shoemaker / cordwainer", including in the Romance (languages) section "Surnames ultimately from Latin "sutor": . . . Le Sueur". [Latin "sutor" means 'shoemaker', according to my Latin dictionaries.]

This suggests that the modern French word meaning "sweat" has a different origin. (Or maybe was derived from sueur because cobblers were thought to sweat a lot, or something.)

The second line under that Other uses section refers to the canned vegetable brand in question as being associated with the Green Giant brand, whose own page mentions that both originate from Le Sueur, Minnesota, named in honour of Pierre-Charles Le Sueur. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.170.37 (talk) 00:27, 18 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

For some reason, my comment was inserted above yours, even though I posted it after yours. (I've had this happen before, perhaps because I started my comment before you did but dawdled around and didn't finish it until after you posted.) The French word for sweat comes from Lat. sudor, not from sutor. Deor (talk) 01:18, 18 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I've seen this sort of thing happen before, too. No worries. This case is a good example of the fact that words and names (place or personal) which appear identical now may have converged from different forms in the past, which is why so much 'folk etymology' (modern or ancient) is often mistaken. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.170.37 (talk) 16:32, 18 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The French suffix -eur forms masculine agent nouns from the stem of the present participle of verbs. For example, tuer ("to kill'), present participle tuant, gives rise to the noun tueur ("killer"). So le sueur meaning "the sweater" (sweating person) would have been a regular devolopment from the verb suer, suant, but was possibly inhibited by the formation of the feminine noun sueur from Latin sudor (which is masculine in Latin; for the reverse gender swap, we have Latin feminine arbor with the French masculine descendant arbre). ‑‑Lambiam 12:02, 18 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Side note, I suspect the posting order may have to do with when you started writing your response, rather than when you posted it. GalacticShoe (talk) 04:25, 19 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hanks & Hodges A Dictionary of Surnames (Oxford 1988) connects it to German Sauter, "a shoemaker or cobbler (rarely a tailor)". —Tamfang (talk) 20:32, 19 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

A word which has only survived as a family name and according to de:Sauter (Familienname) disappeared in its original meaning in the 15th century. -- 79.91.113.116 (talk) 08:53, 20 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The German name seems to be an early Latin borrowing rather than a cognate, though. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:29, 20 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks everyone. 2601:644:8581:75B0:8F01:9261:FCD:4BB9 (talk) 18:50, 19 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

May 20

Dog knows dog

I searched hours but didn't find any specific useful information about its origin. I will appreciate any help. Omidinist (talk) 17:42, 20 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]