This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the October 7 attacks article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Q: Why is the attack not marked as a "Hamas victory" or "Israeli victory"?
A: After a long discussion involving over 40 editors, it was decided that the result of the attack has no consensus. In the discussion, there was a split consensus for the attack being a "Hamas victory" and for the attack's result being "Inconclusive".
This article was nominated for deletion on 13 October 2023. The result of the discussion was keep.
Yakhini massacre was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 23 November 2023 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into October 7 attacks. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.
Ein HaShlosha massacre was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 10 December 2023 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into October 7 attacks. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.
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Benjamin Hart (December 2, 2024). "Jimmy Wales on Why Wikipedia Is Still So Good". Intelligencer. AI has gotten to be quite good at multiple languages, and what I did use it for is to compare pages in English, Hebrew, and Arabic about the October 7 Hamas attack. That was super-interesting, and I found it very useful. It basically said the English one is very, very neutral and the others tend to take one side or the other.
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(edit conflict) They should probably be discussed first, is the only reason why. Sure, we can go through them:
The image, I support. There aren't that many images in the article, and that one is a little easier on the eye than all the blood and gore later on.
broke out from the blockade of the Gaza Strip. I'm not positive, but I don't believe sources generally emphasise this portion of the attacks (the breakout). You compared that to the Simchat Torah reference – that is covered in many sources. The word "blockaded" linked to the article, allows readers interested in that aspect of the attacks to do so.
the first invasion of Israeli territory since the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. Yes it is true that from a strictly technical standpoint that there was no Israeli territory until the 1949 armistice agreements, but Israel de facto became a country the day of their Declaration of Independence (upon which the League immediately invaded). Palestine is not de jure a country, not being a UN member state, but we would still describe the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip as an invasion of Palestinian territory. This fact is mentioned in many sources.
Thanks for this good outline for discussion and for your go-ahead for the image. For the other two points:
broke out from the blockade of the Gaza Strip. This is prominent in sources with sympathy for the Palestinians. Early on, for example, authoritative scholars Rashid Khalidi and Joseph Massad, as well as the prominent Palestinian journalist Mariam Barghouti, have emphasized the surprising aspect of the 'jailbreak' from Gaza. There is also broader coverage (popular and academic) addressing the massive Israeli military and intelligence failure to contain/stop Hamas and prevent the October 7 attacks out of Gaza. The Simhat Torah detail is prominent in pro-Israel sources. I mentioned that detail in the lead to clarify the need for balance per NPOV.
the first invasion of Israeli territory since the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. As the claim is (technically) incorrect, it should not appear in the first paragraph, completely devoid of context. The matter should be treated with nuance in the body where the technicalities and de facto and de jure circumstances can be dutifully and responsibly elaborated. Otherwise it is deceptive and misleading.
If there is significant sourcing discussing the blockade in reference to the attacks, it could be discussed in more depth somewhere in the article (currently it is briefly mentioned, but only in a position attributed to Hamas.) However, adding it straight to the first sentence of the lead seems like a stretch. See MOS:FIRST - the first sentence should have the most basic dry summary of the subject necessary to orient nonspecialist readers who may not know eg. what the attack is at all; its purpose isn't to present all the various perspectives on the subject. We also do have to be wary of WP:FALSEBALANCE - the fact that sources with sympathy for the Palestinians say something doesn't make it due; what matters is how much coverage it gets overall. What I would suggest doing is expanding on it in the body first with the best available source (possibly using one of the places where it is briefly mentioned already as a starting point for expansion.) Then, based on what you find source-wise and can justify in the body, we could revisit whether this requires more prominent treatment in the lead (and especially whether it should be more than just something attributed to Hamas.) Regarding the first invasion of Israeli territory since the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, I don't think that wording is actually wrong (it is true regardless of whether the war was an invasion of Israeli territory), but if people are concerned about the possible implication we could just reword it to something like the first invasion of Israeli territory since the founding of Israel, which is basically saying the same thing in every important respect but avoids the implication because clearly the reader will understand that Israel could not be invaded before it was founded. (Though, we might want to avoid that wikilink because it redirects to the declaration of independence, which re-introduces the problem.) I think that some phrasing of that point belongs in the first paragraph of the lead, since it captures an important part of the subject's notability. --Aquillion (talk) 21:30, 4 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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Remove "Less than two months before the attacks, King Abdullah II of Jordan lamented that Palestinians had "no civil rights; no freedom of mobility"." from the warnings section, as this seems to be a more general statement rather than a warning. EightAndNine (talk) 21:20, 8 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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Dead Hamas belligerent commanders aren't marked with † symbols. Or at least it doesn't show that they're dead and didn't command parts of the war anymore.
Not done: The dagger symbol is intended to denote that someone was killed in action during the October 7 attacks, not later on like the Hamas commanders were. Day Creature (talk) 17:27, 23 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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Currently the Infobox lists the “Result” of the October 7 attacks as a “tactical victory”; this is a misrepresentation of the source cited, which characterized the attacks merely as a “tactical success.” In American English, the word “victory” most commonly carries a connotation of a decisive victory in a battle or war, which the October 7 attacks were not in any traditionally understood sense of the word; the October 7 attacks were terrorist attacks against unarmed civilians, not a proper “battle” or “war” between military or even paramilitary combatants. Request changing the “Result” from the current misleading wording (“Hamas tactical victory”) to a more objective, more neutral-POV “1195 Israelis and foreign nationals killed; start of the Gaza War” —Arrandale Westmere (talk) 03:06, 3 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. The October 7 attacks were to a significant extent a military confrontation between Hamas fighters and the IDF, in addition to the attacks on civilians that took place. The terminology used is plainly appropriate. Day Creature (talk) 06:33, 3 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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In the introduction, it is said that "Dozens of cases of rape and sexual assault reportedly occurred, but Hamas officials denied the involvement of their fighters." but the sources given use very different language: “Initially said to be "dozens" by Israeli authorities, they later clarified they could not provide a number” (...) “Hamas has called for an impartial international investigation into the accusations.” - therefore, I propose the following change:
Diff:
−
Dozensof cases of rape and sexual assault reportedlyoccurred, but Hamas officials denied the involvement of their fighters.
+
Israeli authorities have reported cases of rape and sexual assault – initially said to be "dozens" by Israeli authorities, who later clarified they could not provide a number – but Hamas officials denied the involvement of their fighters, and have called for an impartial international investigation into the accusations.” The militants involved in the attack are accused of having committed acts of [[Gender-related violence|gender-based violence]], war crimes, and [[crimes against humanity]]. Hamas has denied that its fighters committed any sexual assaults, and has called for an impartial international investigation into the accusations.
Gettleman, Sella & Schwartz 2023 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFGettlemanSellaSchwartz2023 (help): "Meni Binyamin, the head of the International Crime Investigations Unit of the Israeli police, has said that "dozens" of women and some men were raped by Hamas militants on Oct. 7."
McKernan 2024a harvnb error: no target: CITEREFMcKernan2024a (help): "Israel's top police investigations unit, Lahav 433...says it is unable to put a number on how many women and girls suffered gender-based violence."
Done Cannolis (talk) 03:45, 9 June 2025 (UTC)
Not done: The dagger symbol is intended to denote that someone was killed in action during the October 7 attacks, not later on like the Hamas commanders were. Day Creature (talk) 17:27, 23 June 2025 (UTC)