Talk:2023 Nashville school shooting

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Discussions:

RM, 2023 Covenant School shooting → Covenant School shooting, No consensus, 28 March 2023, Requested move 28 March 2023
RM, 2023 Covenant School shooting → Nashville school shooting, Moved to 2023 Nashville school shooting, 7 April 2023, Requested move 7 April 2023

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Gender identity of perpetrator

Q: Which pronouns should be used when referring to the perpetrator?

A: Multiple (1, 2, 3) talk page sections have discussed this topic — it currently appears that a majority of reliable sources (e.g. Independent, The Guardian, WaPo, NPR) now lean towards using he/him pronouns for the perpetrator. As a majority of reliable sources use these pronouns, and these pronouns seem to reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification (WP:GENDERID), we too should use he/him pronouns when referring to the perpetrator.

Q: Which name should be used when referring to the perpetrator?

A: Multiple talk page sections have discussed this topic. Consensus is to use both names, while limiting the number of uses of the former name, following this RfC.

Other questions

Q: Why are the weapons used not fully named?

A: Multiple (1, 2, 3) talk page sections have discussed this. At this time, there does not appear to be a reliable source for two of the three weapons used. In order for the names of the other two weapons to be included, we would need a source that is considered to be generally reliable.

Q: The New York Post has posted an article with details about the shooting. Why haven't they been included?

A: Multiple (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7) talk page sections have attempted to suggest edits due to information from the New York Post. The New York Post has been deemed a generally unreliable source by the community. (See WP:NYPOST for more details.) This means that the New York Post is not considered to be a reliable source for information.

While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard.

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Whatever happened to MOS:GENDERID?

Some1, if anything, it should be removed from the perpetrator section. Have one or the other, not both. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 23:45, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The RfC consensus (Talk:2023_Nashville_school_shooting/Archive_6#Request_for_Comment:_How_should_the_perpetrator_be_named_in_the_article?) says there's a rough consensus to say "Audrey Elizabeth Hale" once in the lede, and in one or two other carefully-selected places. Some1 (talk) 23:51, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Which goes against GENDERID. RFC don't mean anything when they go against a policy. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 00:42, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:GENDERID is a guideline ("It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though occasional exceptions may apply.") @S Marshall: took this (MOS:GENDERID) into account when he made the close. Some1 (talk) 00:46, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I did indeed. That close is more than a year old and it's reasonable to revisit old decisions from time to time to see if the consensus has changed; but I'm resolute that I closed that discussion correctly.—S Marshall T/C 00:54, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
LilianaUWU herself !voted to say Audrey Elizabeth Hale in the lead, by the way.—S Marshall T/C 00:57, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, in the lead, and only because the RSes blindly followed what the cops said in their press releases. Note how I never said anything about putting it anywhere else. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 01:13, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Might be a good idea anyways given RFC: MOS:GENDERID and the deadnames of deceased trans and nonbinary persons. Guideline still as noted above by Some1, but that RfC did try to resolve some of the discussions that we had here. --Super Goku V (talk) 04:20, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see the point of another RfC considering the name is only mentioned twice and for encyclopedic interest or when necessary to avoid confusion; most of the reliable sources that came out after the shooting used Hale's birth name, not the preferred name. Some1 (talk) 12:54, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I mean, the point is that the policy has since been clarified; I don't think there's really much to support the idea that the second mention is of encyclopedic interest or necessary to avoid confusion. And the entire point of MOS:GENDERID is that we reflect what the sources say about their self-identification, not how third parties describe them. As it says, we must "reflect the person's most recent expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources." I don't think anyone has really given a particularly good reason for why we would deviate from that here. --Aquillion (talk) 17:13, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since three editors (you, LilianaUwU and I'm assuming Super Goku V) seemingly support removing the second mention of the birth name, feel free to remove it--preferably from the lead (not the Perpetrator section). No RfC needed (unless people are trying to remove every mention of the birth name from this article). Some1 (talk) 23:27, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More Hale info

Several resources say that Hale died three days after her 28th birthday. 2600:1702:5225:C010:69EE:BDDD:749E:475C (talk) 00:38, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Name

Can we change the pronouns back to Her and not him. Actually let’s take their name out completely. Don’t give her the satisfaction she was looking for by posting about her. 2600:1700:23D0:D7A0:F497:4FBE:F9DB:C2FA (talk) 02:59, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Who the heck are you talking about? Dimadick (talk) 03:59, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]