Talk:Caste system in India

Ancient DNA research

While I do not have access to Reich's 2018 book, I do have access to the study by Nakatsuka et al (2017) that is also cited in this section. Neither that study, nor the methodology explained in the Ancient DNA section, seem to involve any Ancient DNA at all. Instead, they seem to have taken DNA of modern humans and then used their knowledge of evolutionary theory to extrapolate the likely age of the last common ancestors of the individual clades. If we want to keep a separate section for this methodology, I would propose changing the title simply to genetics research or similar, and then also move the reference to the 2016 DNA-based study mentioned at the end of the Jatis section to here. Felix QW (talk) 11:38, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I implemented the changes I mentioned above, as there has ben no further input on this. Felix QW (talk) 09:46, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I have read Reich's book/most aDNA papers related to India. Precious few ancient DNA samples are available from India due to climate factors. The most important aDNA studies about India so far are Narasimhan 2019 and Shinde 2019. Other studies that do not directly involve aDNA include Reich 2009 (rather outdated), Moorjani 2013, and Marina Silva 2017. These are all relevant to the caste system.

One potential reason to conflate aDNA studies with these other studies is that they use methods like ADMIXTURE and PCA on (autosomal) genetic profiles of ancient populations from previous aDNA studies.

I have no actionable suggestions, just FYI. Matthayichen (talk) 08:29, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

That section has been renamed "Genetic research". So this is a non-issue now. We don't need "ancient DNA" for investigating caste system issues. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:11, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes we don't need ancient DNA but it is an evolving field with multiple methods with varying results. If we are going to have Genetics Section then it should be constantly updated with new research data as it gets published.

Here is a paper which should have been referenced in the Genetic section as it has already been published & questions simplistic understanding of Gupta period Endogamy onset -

Rémi Tournebize, Gillian Chu, Priya Moorjani (2022), Reconstructing the history of founder events using genome-wide patterns of allele sharing across individuals

Note -

In a majority of the populations, the founder events occurred within the past 600–1,000 years, suggesting this period was integral to shaping endogamy in India. These estimates pre-date the British colonization of India but postdate the ANI-ASI admixture (or spread of Iranian farmer or Steppe pastoralist ancestry to the subcontinent) [27,41]. Endogamy likely became stronger during the British Raj which could have further contributed to the founder events in many groups. In this scenario, our dates would reflect average estimates of multiple founder events, though the patterns we observe cannot be fully explained by recent events alone.

Deep007 bond007 (talk) 08:16, 15 February 2025 (UTC)

That's even later than the Guptas! (simplistic understanding of Gupta period Endogamy onset is a simplistic comment). It coincides with the onset of Muslim-rule... Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:39, 15 February 2025 (UTC)

// That's even later than the Guptas! (simplistic understanding of Gupta period Endogamy onset is a simplistic comment). It coincides with the onset of Muslim-rule. //

Hence i said if we are going to have Genetic section on caste giving simplistic explanations like endogamy onset coinciding with Guptas {In which community is this most clearly observable?} will be misleading & 2 things will be essential to note - Founder events & Population bottlenecks in regional communities. Deep007 bond007 (talk) 06:23, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

Skin color

I was reading encyclopedia articles from the 80s and 90s. It said that people who were higher in the caste system had lighter color skin and people lower on the caste system had darker color skin. It is implied that the caste system is a form of racism. Hope this helps the article.

Gandhi picture to be deleted: Major changes needed

This is a plea to Wikipedia activists and authors who are not from South Asian origin. This is an extremely important point to not have Gandhi's picture and Gandhi's saviourism as part of the article.

1. Gandhi was from a highly privileged caste. In fact, the first line of his autobiography My Experiments with Truth, begins with him talking about his caste status. Having his picture instead of a person from an Untouchable caste, who actually fought for dalit rights, makes no sense. BR Ambedkar is the person we need in the picture here. Ambedkar was the leader of Untouchables, contemporary and opponent of Gandhi, sociologist, lawyer, public intellectual, drafter of India's constitution

2. Gandhi actively worked against rights that the Untouchables themselves worked very hard for. Arundhati Roy, the Booker Prize winning author, recounts BR Ambedkar's quotation of Gandhi's fast to take away electorates for dalits, as "barefaced blackmail". This is also much discussed in various other existing social science literature, including in works such as Radical Equality by philosopher Aishwary Kumar.

3. Having Gandhi's picture as the saviour of Untouchables, is also about what academics term "savarna saviour complex", which is exactly the same or in some ways worse than the "White saviour complex". Many of these could be found in popular academic publications and also in prestigious online magazines, such as The Swaddle, which has articles such as Saving the World like a Savarna. Ambedkar wrote Annihilation of Caste, the single most influential text of 20th century South Asia. He also calls out the shallow promises such as savarna people including those by Gandhi.

4. Other major change: Leading intellectual contributions from Untouchable blogs such as roundtableindia.co.in also point to the problem of caste and discuss the correct terms of the system. I tried including the word "savarna" in the article, but it did not included. This is also a very important way to return the anthropological gaze, because "savarna" shows that caste actually belongs not just to Untouchables, but also to the people who are "Touchable", and has been widely used in many academic publications worldwide.

Therefore, I propose to delete Gandhi's picture and instead use BR Ambedkar's picture in the Wikipedia page on the caste system. This would correct many historical wrongs. Gummibaerli1 (talk) 09:36, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Personally, I have no problem with this and think it's probably a sensible change. I am not of South Asian origin and have no real opinion either way on Gandhi (or Ambedkar), so no axe to grind, but I agree it would be better to have someone of a lower caste as the main picture rather than a Vaishya (Gandhi). Dāsānudāsa (talk) 09:57, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

जाति पर बात करने के लिए जाति के आधार पर चित्र या फिर किसी व्यक्ति का योगदान देखा जाए गांधी किसी जाति विशेष के लिए जाने जाते है ऐसा मैंने कभी ना पढ़ा ना सुना और ना ही देखा महापुरुषों के नाम पर अपने राजनीतिक रोटी सेकने वाले ऐसा करता हुआ पाए जाते है हमारा बुद्धिजीवी समाज भी इस भ्रम जाल में फसेगा तो राष्ट्र हित का क्या 2409:4051:2E14:6EF3:D429:1DFF:FE66:571 (talk) 05:50, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 February 2025

Remove everything, the Britishers created the caste system, read the BBC article on this topic here: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-48619734 Goldencow1011 (talk) 07:18, 6 February 2025 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 07:42, 6 February 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 May 2025

This is a wrong representation, even if you have to do this it has to be vertical division of the work, not head and toes. What is you definition of shudra and untouchables? 24.5.97.18 (talk) 01:25, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Capitals00 (talk) 06:07, 1 May 2025 (UTC)