Talk:Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science

Unsourced claim about a living person

I've removed a newly added unsourced claim[1] about a living person. If someone has a reliable source for this information which doesn't violate WP:SYN, we can consider adding it back to the article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:17, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Your objection here is a bit vague, but I assume you're referring to the characterization of Shermer as a "skeptic." You do know that he's executive director of the Skeptics Society and founder of Skeptic magazine, right? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:09, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

No, I was referring to Colin Wilson.[2] Sorry, if I was unclear. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:15, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

It's self-evidently the case; someone willing to do the drudgery could readily source it. After all he's a member of the The Ghost Club and so on. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:25, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

But I think adding that comment is attempting to cause the reader to discredit his critique immediately. Silverseren^C 15:27, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. Doesn't the reader deserve to know the stance of the commenters? After all, we characterize Shermer as a "skeptic" and so on. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:38, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't think we should "characterize" any of them, that is not our job, and is introducing POV into the article. It is up to the reader to look into the articles about the people and come to their own conclusions, not for us to tell them what to think about the critiques. Silverseren^C 15:41, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

We're not telling the reader what to think, we're just telling them who the commenters are. By your logic we should never refer to Barack Obama is a "Democrat" except in his biography. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:45, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

There's a difference between calling someone a Democrat and saying that someone is a supporter of fringe science. The change on Kodish is even worse. It already stated he was a General Semanticist, there was no need to change that. Silverseren^C 15:52, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I think it's fair that there should be some description easily available for the interested. That means that it should be given if there is no article on the person. Thus it's reasonable to describe Kodish, briefly and factually, since otherwise the reader would probably not know anything about his views, but in the case of Wilson or Shupe (looking ahead a bit), since they have articles, the reader can follow the link. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 16:00, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, but Kodish already had General Semanticist attached in front of his name and that was changed to say "a supporter of General Semantics, one of the targets of this book", which isn't really appropriate. The article already describes the chapters and has General Semantics in there, so the reader can figure this out on their own. Silverseren^C 16:03, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

So you think we need to make the reader work as hard as possible? I've never seen that approach recommended in guides to good writing, but maybe I'm wrong. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:05, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I think Silver seren has hit the nail on the head. Also, avoiding contentious labels altogether is - generally speaking - a good idea IMHO.[3] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:12, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Disagree. Stating that GS is one of the book's targets is helpful. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:20, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

From reading the policies, I think that the typical WP reader wants instant information and should not need to dig any deeper. Accordingly, all relevant information needs to be present on the one page. Which means that, yes, appropriate context should be given. Essentially, it means that the relevant information is summarized. And, surely, that is not OR? Hpvpp (talk) 07:37, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. Saying that Shermer is a skeptic, that Colin Wilson supports a lot of fringe topics, and that the General Semantics guy is a General Semantics proponent is in no way contentious at all. Every single one of them would freely admit those labels proudly. It is giving much-needed context to the inclusion of their comments here. ditto for mentioning that General Semantics was a target of this book - and it is especially important with the people inexplicably trying to remove he chapter headings from the article, which has the end result of hiding just what was discussed in the book. If you do not want the reader to know who these people are then you are misleading readers. That's POV-pushing. Hell, the criticism section arguably should not be there at all when the only true criticism is from fringe true believers instead of notable and reliable sources. DreamGuy (talk) 19:45, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Wow. Surreal, indeed. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:00, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

As I have been arguing from the start. Hpvpp (talk) 08:29, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm fairly certain (though I may be wrong) that A Quest For Knowledge was being sarcastic. Mainly because of DreamGuy's last sentence, which is ridiculous. Silverseren^C 08:36, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

No, I'm serious. DreamGuy's post is so riddled with errors and violations of several Wikipedia policies and guidelines, it's hard to even know where to begin. But let's dissect it:

• "Saying that Shermer is a skeptic" - I removed an unsourced claim about Wilson, not Shermer.
• "that Colin Wilson supports a lot of fringe topics" I removed the phrase because it was an unsourced, negative claim about a living person. This is a routine change I would make on any WP:BLP. It wouldn't matter to me in the slightest if it was Barrack Obama or George W Bush. If you want to put a contentious claim about a living person, cite your source.
• "and that the General Semantics guy is a General Semantics proponent is in no way contentious at all." Again, I removed an unsourced claim about Wilson, not the "General Semantics guy" (whoever that is).
• "Every single one of them would freely admit those labels proudly." Perhaps, but cite your sources.
• "and it is especially important with the people inexplicably trying to remove he chapter headings from the article" (emphasis mine) Pure nonsense. I clearly explained why the chapter listing was removed. Articles about books are not supposed to have chapter listings. AFAIK, there is not a single featured article which contains such a thing and it specifically goes against the WP:WikiProject Books/Non-fiction article guideline.
• "which has the end result of hiding just what was discussed in the book." As has already been explained, the contents of the book should be explained in a synopsis section. Again, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Books/Non-fiction article.
• "If you do not want the reader to know who these people are then you are misleading readers." Violation of WP:AGF. I'm vaguely aware of Shermer. I have no idea who the other people are.
• "That's POV-pushing." Violation of WP:AGF and WP:NPA.
• "Hell, the criticism section arguably should not be there at all when the only true criticism is from fringe true believers instead of notable and reliable sources." Books should have a critical reception section just like any film or album.

To address WP:TLDR, I'll bold-face the following:

The hilarious thing is that I have absolutely no idea who Colin Wilson is and never heard of this book. I only came here because it was mentioned on the Fringe theory noticeboard where I'm a regular patroller. I made a couple of minor, routine changes that I would make in any article about any book. Somehow, a couple of minor changes gets turned into a grand conspiracy theory about POV-pushing editors wanting censor this article and mislead readers. Surreal, indeed. Wow. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:27, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Why are you shouting? William M. Connolley (talk) 17:16, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

What does not having heard of Colin Wilson have to do with anything? Whenever a source is cited for anything one has to consider the source, and by removing otherwise well known facts that give much needed context about the source -- in this case, that Colin Wilson is a well known advocate of extreme paranormal and fringe topics, as detailed in his own books -- the end result is misleading and ends up supporting a particular POV. How pointing out this basic fact and basic Wikipedia makes anyone a conspiracy theorist is beyond me. Colin Wilson is, however, a well known conspiracy theorist. Your not knowing who he is (and our readers not having a way of knowing be censoring information on him) is the problem. DreamGuy (talk) 02:00, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

It's funny how one is inspired to do things. I just created a dab page for well known. I resisted the temptation to add that the phrase can be weasel words meaning "unsourced and untrue", as used above. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 13:56, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

It stems from the fact that three times you made bad faith accusations against your fellow editors ("POV-pushing", "attempting to censor this article to promote a particular POV in violation of core principles.", etc.). You've been on Wikipedia long enough to know better: Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed immediately and without discussion. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:20, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Use of 'crank' in Wikipedia's voice

Should we be using the word 'crank' in Wikipedia's voice? It doesn't sound very encyclopedic or professional. Is there another term we can use? Or perhaps we can word things differently? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:18, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

It's clear that the word is in Gardner's voice, not Wikipedia's. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 19:12, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

All uses of crank in the article should be in quotation marks, since it is neither a professional nor an encyclopedia word. Currently, there is one use of it that is in quotation marks and six uses that are not. This needs to be rectified. Silverseren^C 19:15, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Not necessary after the first such usage within the same block of material, unless the goal is to imply skepticism toward Gardner's views. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 19:25, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

The subsequent, continuous usage of it makes it seem like it is a word that Wikipedia is advocating. Truthfully, four of those six uses in the article are unnecessary and could be replaced with a different term. That would probably be better. Silverseren^C 19:30, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

It seems WP:LABEL would apply. Value-laden labels are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:51, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

This article has multiple issues

I finally got around to reading the article today, and I have to say that there are multiple issues with the article. Aside from the things that have already been mentioned, the article reads like a WP:QUOTEFARM. Most of the History section is NOT about the history of the book. The Summary section contains way too much detail on the second characteristic of pseudo-scientists while completely ignoring the rest of the book. Also, I wonder if Wilson's criticism is notable; I couldn't find any secondary reliable sources for it. I'd also like to see some reviews by professional book reviewers. To be honest, it might be easier to delete the article and start over from scratch than to try to fix this. However, given that even routine and minor edits such as deleting the chapters listing gets Wikilawyered and filibustered back into the article, I'm not sure if there's a good way forward. Which is a shame, because apparently this book is a classic, and there's no good reason why Wikipedia shouldn't have a good or featured article about it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:35, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

IMO, part of what is wrong with this article is the same as what is wrong with Wikipedia as a whole. However, I am not adequately equipped to deal with that. I am sorry (for myself) to have placed that {criticism} tag, but I was still idealistic then. Now that I have spotted this quote by User:MastCell

Ignorance is infinite, while patience is not. Ultimately, you will lose patience with the unchecked flow of ignorance, at which point you'll be blocked for incivility. The goal is to accomplish as much as possible before that inevitability comes to pass.

I have decided to quit here before I, too, lose my patience. I apologize for leave any loose ends and if anybody seriously wants an answer they can come to my talk-page. Hpvpp (talk) 06:25, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Baloney detection kit

I'm reverting the See also link to Baloney detection kit because it has no relevance to the article. Gardner's criteria are quite different from those that Sagan suggests. (Sagan's are better.) SamuelTheGhost (talk) 11:46, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Would the link then be useful if it were presented with some context, rather than a See Also, and explaining what this difference was? Andy Dingley (talk) 11:51, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes indeed, if the comparison could be sourced, but otherwise we'd be open to the accusation of WP:OR. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 12:22, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I've re-added it, but under its true name. It is a see-also link: it doesn't have to be directly the same. But asserting that it has no relevance to the article is clearly wrong William M. Connolley (talk) 12:52, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Putting it in as a reference to the book is different, and perhaps more justifiable. But it's interesting that although Sagan in his book acknowledges Gardner as a source of inspiration and help he never mentions Fads and Fallacies. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 13:19, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

And if Sagan, why not also the books by Robert L. Park, Donna Kossy, Christopher Evans etc.? Ed Regis, Michael Shermer and Louis Lasagna are already mentioned, but not specifically itemised as authors of books on the same topic. I think the sensible approach would be to name those authors who themselves acknowledge Fads and Fallacies as their spiritual ancestor, but not others. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 09:47, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

why not also the books by Robert L. Park - dunno, which books do you mean? But anyway, WP:NOTPERFECT applies William M. Connolley (talk) 11:59, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Voodoo science, Kooks and Strange Creations, Cults of Unreason for those three authors respectively. And I repeat that we need to adopt a sensible, and reasonably consistent approach. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 12:59, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

It would seem reasonable to link those two with articles William M. Connolley (talk) 13:51, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, not worth further argument, anyway. I wouldn't revert that. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 14:50, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

"what it described as"

A disagreement has broken out about whether to say "what it described as pseudosciences and cult beliefs" or just "pseudosciences and cult beliefs", The latter clearly inplies that every topic in the book is, objectively, a pseudoscience or cult belief. This is obviously a question of POV. I really can't see any way this can honestly be disputed. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 18:10, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Your wording adds unnecessary editorializing based on preconceived notions. What is your source? IRWolfie- (talk) 22:29, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

The front cover has "The curious theories of modern pseudoscientists and the strange, amusing and alarming cults that surround them. A sudy in human gullibility". That wording must be Gardner's own, or his publisher's with his consent. So clearly we can use those words in a way which attributes them to him or his publisher. What we cannot do is use those words, or words like them, as unconditional description of the book's subjects, since that is a POV matter. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 11:34, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Sure we can. He's a reliable source for it. You are making attributions when no source does it. IRWolfie- (talk) 11:37, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

So you're saying that a book can be used as a WP:RS for the accuracy of its own content? SamuelTheGhost (talk) 11:56, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

The claim that Gardner himself is a reliable source for any such idea is dubious at best. He was a journalist, right? Moreover, whatever sources we have, we are required to maintain an impartial tone. Articles involving fringe subjects should make clear what the majority viewpoint is, but should not actually take the stance that the majority viewpoint is correct. PSWG1920 (talk) 05:48, 2 October 2012 (UTC)