Talk:Guanche language

Berber script

Kintetsubuffalo said:

→ Are you really sure that the Guanche language (or at least its name) was originally rendered in Berber script? The fact that it was a Berber language does not mean it necessarily made use of its own writing system; it may well have been an oral language. Note that the article says "Early accounts stated the Guanches themselves did not possess a system of writing". It's probably possible to figure out how one can spell the word "Guanche" in neo-Tifinagh, but will this correspond to an actual ancient spelling in any original script? I just wanted to ask the question. (but note that I'm no specialist, so I may be wrong here). Cheers, Womtelo 22:11, 29 March 2007 (UTC).

A very good point, indeed. There are inscriptions found on the some of the Canary Islands that have been identified as the western variant of the Lybico-Berber script; however, these are not clearly associated with the Guanche peoples living on the islands at the time of conquest. Early chronicles indicated that the natives asked the Spanish if they could read the inscriptions. Perhaps the authors of the inscriptions came and left, or they were wiped out or assimilated by the more permanent inhabitants of the islands, and mastery of the script was forgotten. There have been numerous studies on the existing inscriptions and petroglyphs, but I'm not as informed as I'd like to be on the current state of research on it. Twalls 00:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

There are some decoded inscriptions, according to Canarian philologist and historian Ignacio Reyes García. Actually, I'll improve the article by including some citations, inscription translations, phrases and the reconstructed numbers.--Il Qathar (talk) 17:18, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, I did put a new table with the reconstructed numbers, but it has been deleted for some reason by Kwamikagami, a reason which I ignore. Kwami, could you please use the Talk section to discuss the use of that table instead of just deleting it? It's not that I think I'm untouchable and that the table was wonderful, but when I take time and effort to do something I appreciate that somebody discusses with me before they simply revert my editing, or at least a mention of why it has been deleted. Thank you --Il Qathar (talk) 23:32, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

It's redundant: We already have such a table. — kwami (talk) 00:40, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

kwami It might be redundant, but in any case it's a contribution with the reconstructed phonetics of the original numerals. It helps to understand the possible graphical errors in some of the copies, as the contaminated arabic numbers, which can't be traced to a common Berber root. If you think that it's no use by it's own, why don't you include the contribution to the previous list? At least it has citations, and it works as a cleaned up list as comparison with the others. I still don't think there's a need to just delete it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Il Qathar (talk • contribs) 22:37, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Why don't you? We can have two reconstructions. — kwami (talk) 21:40, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

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More evidence to classify the Guanche language as a Berber language

It seems to me this wikipedia article only claims that the language is Berber based on animals, agrilctural vocabulary. While many videos will show you their language/vocabulary in numbers, genders, foods, greetings, nature are also similar to other Berber languages.

Look at the youtube video that says "The Sound of the Guanche language (Numbers, Greetings, Words & Sample Texts)". You will find that many North Africans youtuber commenters, Berbers, Amazigh sill say they understand the majority of it, another commented or that it understand 90% of it, and that is similar to the the Berber type in southern Morocco. In my opinion, the article could put even more details on it's similarity to Berber.- Vamlos (talk) 08:21, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

It can't be classified as a Berber language. There is an isolate substratum along with limited (para-)Berber influence. — Sagotreespirit (^talk) 04:18, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Here in this link, it clearly says that it's a Berber language https://omniglot.com/writing/guanche.htm Because Guanches were a isolated people it makes sense they could developed their own isolated vocabulary but one thing it doesn't change it's the script they used was clearly Berber (Libyco-Berber) and the Punic inscriptions found in Canaria islands. Many Tifinagh inscriptions have been found in the Canary Islands, which makes it easier to identify a genetic relationship with the continental linguistic varieties, with a clear predominance of Proto-Tuareg substrate. My opinion is this, we should edit possibly Afroasiatic (or Afroasiatic Berber) in the language classification, it does not necessarily mean it's been proven it's Afroasiatic. But there's a large and sufficient evidence enough to consider it possibly Afroasiatic Berber.

I suggest that we change this----> Language family Unclassified (Afroasiatic?) to this -----> Language family Unclassified (possibly Afroasiatic)- Vamlos (talk) 19:46, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

@Vamlos: Omniglot is not a reliable academic source. And Guanche is not even possibly an Afroasiatic language. It is simply not an Afroasiatic language, a view echoed by many reputable scholars. It would be a language isolate, but due to the small amount of data that is available, "unclassified" would be a better option. — Sagotreespirit (^talk) 18:18, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

You seem to only relate to the few studies that conclude the difficulties about relating the language to the Afro-Asiatic family, which proves that you're somewhat biased or uninterested in the far many more studies that show affinities of at least some stratum/strata. Insisting on this unproductive attitude only hides the evidence for the Berber elements in the language of the Canary Islands. Many researchers admit the striking differences, and would accept the odd elements as evidence for either an early arrival of a non-Berber people (as Carles Múrcia). "Limited para-Berber influence" simply sounds un-academic. What is the Guanche Language(s) anyway (yes, I remind you it's not even considered a single language and there are considerable differences in each island, sometimes showing affinity to different Berber languages based on different consonantal shifts), the language of the isolated stratum or the language that the Spanish conquerors encountered with a profusion of Berber elements? What if the non-Berber language died out by assimilation?--Il Qathar (talk) 14:18, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Written in stones: The Amazigh colonization of the Canary Islands

Libyo-Berbers-Tuaregs-Canarians (Tamâhaq Tuaregs in the Canary Islands in the Context of Ethno-Linguistic Prehistory of Libyo-Berbers: Linguistic and Inscriptional Evidence)

Comparisons with Tarifiyt Berber

Basic vocabulary in Guanche and Berber are strikingly different.

As a brief exercise, I've compiled basic vocabulary comparing both Guanche and Tarifiyt Berber, although I'm not adding the content below into the article since it's WP:SYNTH.

Selected Guanche vocabulary items from a 16th-century list by Alonso de Espinosa, as edited and translated by Clements Robert Markham (1907), as compared to Tarifiyt Berber from Kossmann (2009):

gloss	Tarifiyt Berber	Guanche
lake	ařimam; ŧanda	aguere
milk	aɣi; ađɣəs	ahof
sun	ŧfušŧ	amen
sheep	iħuřiyən	ana
goat	ŧɣat’t’; amyan	ara
sky	ažənna	ataman
dog	ayđi; aqzin; ahəggā	cancha
moon	yua; ŧaziri	cel
woman	ŧamɣā’ŧ	chamato
man	āyaz	coran
son	mmi	guan; ben
spirit, life	ŧuđāŧ	guaya
multitude, people	iwđan	hari
mother	yəmma	mayec
bone	iɣəss	n-amet
thou, thy	šəkk	t
they	nihni	th
barley	iməndi	tara
pine tree	ŧayđa < Latin	tea
shoe	ahākus < Arabic	xarco
sky	ažənna	xerax
navel	ŧaʕəbbut’	zonfa

Guanche dialects from Wölfel (1965), compared to Tarifiyt Berber from Kossmann (2009):

gloss	Tarifiyt Berber	Guanche	dialect of Guanche
nostrils	ŧinzā	doramas	Gran Canaria
shoulder	ŧaɣrut’t’	adargoma	Gran Canaria
heart	uř	atacaicate	Gran Canaria
fist	fus 'hand'	garuaic
navel	ŧaʕəbbut’	zonfa	Tenerife
bone	iɣəss	agoñe	Tenerife
good	šən	taber	Palma
sky	ažənna	tigotan	Palma
sky, God	ažənna	ataman	Tenerife
sun	ŧfušŧ	magec	Tenerife, Gran Canaria?
water	aman	ahemon	Hierro
water	aman	aala(mon)	Gomera, Hierro
water	aman	ade	Palma
fire	ŧiməssi	ide	Tenerife
dog	ayđi; aqzin; ahəggā	cancha	Gran Canaria, Tenerife
dog	ayđi; aqzin; ahəggā	garehagua	Palma

Guanche words that have Berber cognates might be 'sky', 'woman', 'pine tree', and 'water', but we can't set up any sound correspondences either:

• Tarifiyt ažənna, Guanche ataman 'sky'
• Tarifiyt ŧamɣā’ŧ, Guanche chamato 'woman'
• Tarifiyt ŧayđa < Latin, Guanche tea 'pine tree'
• Tarifiyt aman, Guanche ahemon 'water'

As for the Berber-like numeral system in Guanche, that does not constitute evidence of genetic relatedness. You can see how entire numeral systems can be borrowed among genetically unrelated language groups. For example, many Amerindian languages now use Spanish numerals, and numerous languages of the Sahel utilize Arabic numerals. Kra-Dai languages have an Austronesian base, but most branches use numeral systems almost completely derived from Sinitic languages.

The comparisons clearly show that Guanche and Berber absolutely not related, unless your methodologies are similar to those of Joseph Greenberg and Sergei Starostin. — Sagotreespirit (^talk) 18:12, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Yes they are different(the ones you presented) but that isn't strong evidence enough that the language wasn't Berber origin. Some North African/Berber group have higher understanding of the Guanches numbers, vocabulary much than others (between 40-90%). Also it's very bold of you to claim that they borrowed the language system when the Guanches never had contact with other groups until the Spaniards arrived. You should be asking the opinion of North African Berbers rather than Spaniards, many of them say they understood the language in high degree..

Besides we already have multiple evidence to prove Guanche is of Berber origin 1) Genetic proven Guanches are of North African origin 2) There are many Berber Vocabulary in the Guanche languages that is understood from 30% to 90% depending on the Berber group from North Africa. 3) They used a Berber script. Archaeological finds on the Canaries include both Libyco-Berber and Punic inscriptions in rock carvings.

Now your properly wondering why so many of the Guanches vocabulary are so strikingly different ? The answer is because they created their own vocabulary through thousand years of isolation. For example the Basques people are Europeans in Northern Spain. Genetically they are related with Indo-European/European Caucasian yet their languages are unrelated to them. The Basque people went through isolation and created their own Basque language, the Basque language is considered language isolate for this reason. It's possible that the Guanches were originally a Berber migrant group from neighboring Morocco who suffered a wave of tsunami, killing most of the population and nearly forgetting how to speak and write. This explains why they are genetically North African group speaking a language that is mixed between Berber and non-Berber. People can create new languages and vocabulary through isolation. Just like there are many related languages and dialects who introduced new vocabulary, even today new vocabulary are being created.

I don't know how much you know the Berber language. I suggest you to look at this Guanche video.The Sound of the Guanche language (Numbers, Greetings, Words & Sample Texts)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMWjAmzt3mo

Many North African people ( they are Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians) say they could understand 40 to 90% of the Guanche words depending on the Berber group/dialect

I seriously doubt you can say that Guanche language is absolutely not related. When so many Berber groups from various North African countries say they understand most of it. Please look at the comment section. A Kabyle Berber said he understood 40% of the language. A Southern Morroco Berber said it's 90% similarity to the Berbers living in Southern Morroco which is next to Canaria islands.Vamlos (talk) 18:23, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

>nearly forgetting how to speak

That isn't plausible. No matter what catastrophe befalls a community, the chances of all members forgetting how to speak to that extent are zero. Zero. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.67.227.181 (talk) 01:10, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Sentences

The lead states that Guanche is known today through sentences and individual words. However, the rest of the article lists only individual words. Have any complete sentences actually been recorded, and if so, could some be included? Lennart97 (talk) 15:12, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, actually there are a few, even with hypothetical etymologies through comparative reconstruction. I've been compiling and studying them for years. If considered useful and reliable, I could provide them with some correct contextualisation in a well written section.--Il Qathar (talk) 13:03, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

@Il Qathar: Sorry, I forgot to add this page to my watchlist so I'm seeing your reply only now. Yes, that would be great! Please add whatever you think is relevant, as long as everything is reliably sourced of course. Lennart97 (talk) 11:04, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Of course, I'll include some of the most unmistakably Berber, which have less doubtful reconstructions based on comparison with Berber roots.--Il Qathar (talk) 20:16, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

@Lennart97: Well here I have a suggestion of what we could include. I include parts of the original texts (contemporary-ish historical records) since they already provide more or less accurate translations, or at least a context and basic semantics (should I translate them to English instead?). What it needs is to adjust to Wikipedia's style and conventions regarding this kind of content - hypothetical reconstructions with meaning. Should I write the translations as literally as possible, as gloss description, or are they fine like that (as long as the citation is provided), translating the author's translation into Spanish?

«¡¡Uh!! Magné Mastáy / Achen tumba Manéy. ¡¡Oh!! Madre del cielo / Madre de la tierra» Prayer to the Virgin Mary during the Candelaria festivity (Tenerife). [Eduardo P. García, 2001]

*Uh! Ma-gnnă, Ma-stăy aše-n tənwa(t), Ma-năy!

“Oh! mother of sky, mother of growth (poetic expletive) of the brotherhood, mother of new.”

«Alzanxiquian abcanahac xerax, que quiere dezir, Lugar del ayuntamiento del hijo del grande» [Espinosa, 1594]

*Als-ənɣ ikiyăn abəqq a-nn ahaẓ Aɣəraɣ.

“Restart for us the roots of the covenant/commune where the kin of Xerax* is.”

*Also known as Guayaxerax (“he who sustains”), local syncretic form of Jesus during the evangelisation of Tenerife.

aɣər-aɣ = “supports the Sky” (Reyes) | ɣereH = “keep safe, sustain” (Militarev).

Y Yguída, y Yguan Ydafe, que quíere decír: Dice que caerâ Ydafe. Y respondía el otro cantando: Que guerte yguan taro: que quíere decír, dalelo que traes, y no caerâ. » [Abreu, ca. 1590]

_*Id yəwəḍa, id yəwăn, Iḍaf? _*Kkə gər-t; yəwăn tar-u.

“_Idafe*, does he fall or is he satisfied? _Go and give (offering); he will be satisfied soon.”

*Rocky pillar in the center of the Taburiente caldera (La Palma).

Iḍaf = sentinel, guard (Reyes)

«Doramas. Aguay marana en maraguas, ay ha acha Aytimadas ayta, ast au tindana ast chanbeneguer ast bentagayre / Sabiduría. aspe Aramaguadas holdaya / Doramas. adu hi area [...] // Sabiduría. Sabeys que diçe que si esta aqui Autindana, o chanbeneguer, O bentagayre tres Canarios balentisimos por que quiere Luchar Conellos. yo le digo que no estan sino Tres damas hermosas que le buscan que vaje aca y diçe que ya biene [...] / Doramas. Aramera macura aramera macura. [...] / Sabiduría. dice que parecemos cosa del çíelo» [Cairasco 1582: 40r]

_*A way əmărəna n əmărəwas! Ay ɣa ašša i-tămaddas ay-da. As-da aw-tendara, as-da šanbănəger, as-da wa-n-taggayd. _*Asəbbi ăra-mawaḍ. As ɣol ddăy-a. _*A ddu-ɣ har-a. _*Ar amăr am aqqur-a.

“_Lo, the overcomer of hardship! He who comes to the fight is here. Where are you, Autindana/Outindara, Chanbeneguer, Bentagayre/Bentagayde? _Fair young girls (we are). Come down here. _Still, I’ll go. _(You are) even like the heaven."

«Las casas de mujeres religiosas era sagrado para delínquentes; llamabanlas Tamogante en Acoran, que significa cassa de Dios» [Gómez Escudero, ca. 1484]

*Taməggant-n-aqquran

“(Female) Servant of *Acorán.”

*Celestial god.

Feel free (all of you) to correct this and rewrite it according to Wikipedia's standards. I will work on it anyway. The citation links are there if anybody wants to include it at any point. Cheers.--Il Qathar (talk) 15:53, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

References

cancha

Might be a borrowing of ‘canicula’ and therefore not be of much help identifying Guanche's origin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.67.227.181 (talk) 11:43, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

The source text refers explicitly to that word as being Guanche, and there's even a theonym derived from it: Hucancha, a "demonic spirit", likely equivalent to a dog deity of La Palma (Haguanran, where "hagua" also means "dog", the black spirit hounds of La Gomera and the similar tibicenas of Gran Canaria. Even if its a Latin borrowing, that wouldn't be odd at all given that Berber languages (including the far removed Tuareg dialects) contain many words of Latin origin. Il Qathar (talk) 17:23, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

One argument against this is that if Pliny was right, Canary Island dogs were endemic since ancient times and quite large. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.67.227.181 (talk) 00:57, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Hayward, 2000

Hayward 2000 is a general overview on the topic of Afroasiatic languages and therefore a lousy source for a niche topic like this. The author hasn't published on Guanche before and likely has very little topical knowledge, given his sweeping claim that Guanche is ‘clearly another AA language’ even though most of the vocabulary is a complete mystery and almost nothing is known about its grammar. And too boot, this source is used to support the claim that Guanche is a Berber language but the author doesn't even claim that. It seems even Hayward had enough humility to not commit any further than to Afroasiatic. The other other author he cites writes: ‘But numerous isoglosses connecting Guanche with Chadic and other Afrasian languages to the exclusion of Berbero-Libyan, indicate a divergent development.’ Unfortunately Igor M. Diakonoff doesn't actually show these isoglosses in his text and looking at some word lists I can see no clear correspondences between Guanche and either reconstructed Proto-Chadic or modern Hausa and all the basic vocabulary is completely different. He died twenty years ago, so we cannot ask him for clarification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.67.227.181 (talk) 14:07, 29 June 2022 (UTC)