Talk:History of Georgetown University

History of Georgetown University has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

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March 23, 2010	Good article nominee	Listed

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History of Georgetown

Hopefully I can expand this into a full History of Georgetown University page at some point.--Patrickneil 05:07, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Exorcist2000poster.jpg

Image:Exorcist2000poster.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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1634?

Can someone explain why 1634 is the founding date? It says Jesuits arrived then, that's it. Did they found the school that became Georgetown then or something? --AW 17:45, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

1634 isn't the founding date, but it is important in the founding of the school. The school is in the location that it is because of 1634. Andrew White, according to his letter and those of other Jesuits, set up a catechism school, but it had to go underground under protestant administration. John Carroll is the link between the school of this lineage and Georgetown. That school became another became one Carroll attended for one year. There are however references, such as on the building pictured, to 1634 on Georgetown's campus.--Patrick Ѻ 18:24, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, well then I think that should be in the article. it's sort of introduced but not really explained --AW 18:47, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It also says "The founding of Georgetown University took place on two main dates, 1634 and 1789." --AW 18:47, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:StElmosFire.png

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BetacommandBot (talk) 04:53, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Collegiumlg.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:History of Georgetown University/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Racepacket (talk) 23:47, 4 March 2010 (UTC) GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria[reply]

very well done. I am putting on hold so that you can address the issues noted below. Again, you are the expert and editor, but I am just raising these points for your consideration.

Is it reasonably well written?
A. Prose quality:
consider rephrasing "The history of Georgetown University begins on two main dates," to "Georgetown University traces back to two formative events,"
Consider adding a wikitable listing past Presidents and their dates of service.
Change "Other Jesuit school would" to "Other Jesuit schools would..." and change "the school was incorporated by Congress" to "the school was reincorporated by Congress..."
Is "A revision of rules in 1829..." referring to school rules or Sodality rules?
In "sequestered University buildings" there may be a better word like commandered?
Change "While John Wilkes Booth" to "Although John Wilkes Booth"?
"The school of law was approved in March 1870" - by whom?
"Georgetown Visitation Preparatory School has remained attached to the University campus" implies some official affiliation rather than just geographical proximity.
"The 1844 bill still in effect" - do you mean in effect until then?
Changed "appended its name to become the School of Nursing" to "changed its name to become the School of Nursing"

B. MoS compliance:
section names should be lower case: First Establishments
Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
A. References to sources:

B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
"the oldest continuous dramatic society in America" needs a reference.
"joining only a handful of universities worldwide to raise at least $1 billion for financial aid" needs a specific source

C. No original research:
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. Major aspects:
Could add to relationship with Vatican & how it differs from Catholic University
Could explain the history of the campus and the construction over the last 15 years, etc.
How has the percentage of students living on campus changed over time?
Were there any historic milestones in curriculum or has the undergraduate experience remained constant?
What about its relationship to Mount St. Mary's University - do they both trace back to the same 1634 roots?
Freed slaves gathered in Washington DC, how and when did Georgetown serve the African American community? (It was involved in the underground railroad. [1] Was Patrick Healy the first black to be President of a major non-HBCU?)

B. Focused:
Why is the section "Georgetown in fiction" in this article rather than in the main Georgetown University article?
Is it neutral?
Fair representation without bias:
Well done.
Is it stable?
No edit wars, etc:
Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
Overall:
Pass or Fail:

Thanks for the quick review! I will look at History of Cornell University this weekend. I made all the grammar changes and added references where you suggested. Though I do like the word "Attached" to describe the relationship with Visitation, as the sentence says "and they occasionally share facilities", but I will try to think of a better verb for there. We do have a table of the 48 presidents at List of Presidents of Georgetown University, and I think it might be a bit long to insert in this article too, but we link to it in the text and in the See also section.

Please consider moving the table from a list to the history article. Many other college have the President wikitable with the history. Racepacket (talk) 05:43, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe there's a connection to Mount St. Mary's other than it is another early Catholic school. Mount St. Mary also isn't the same as the St. Mary's City colony, though there is a public St. Mary's College of Maryland that is near the old Jesuit colony. Georgetown's connection to 1634 is very tenuous, and not made by modern school officials, but is mostly based off the location, the fact that it's the first Catholic school, and that Founder John Carroll went to the previous school and wanted something permanent. Still, its all part of the story for how Georgetown gets to be where it is when it was founded. Now, Catholic University is what you could call a Pontifical university, meaning it is in a hierarchy to the Vatican. Georgetown's hierarchy, like most schools, ends at the Board of Directors, several of whom happen to be Catholic priests. Perhaps we can easily make this more clear in the text.

There must have been a decisive point in time when the Catholic Church said that Georgetown was not going to be the pontifical university for the USA, and that a second catholic university was needed in the Capital. I know that Georgetown was the first, but I believe that Mount St. Mary's was the second catholic school. From what I could find, I think you are correct that they were unrelated and grew out of separate orders. Racepacket (talk) 05:10, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I also don't know of any sources for the underground railroad on campus. Numerous houses in the Georgetown neighborhood were involved, but unfortunately, having been through all the campus tunnels, none existed then, and certainly didn't go to the White House as that link suggests. Healy was "the first president of a major school who acknowledge his African heritage" as I think we put it on the main Georgetown page. Very few HBCU were founded before the Civil War, and I don't know the makeup of their presidents, but the idea is that Healy became president of an already established school.

No, my point was that in 1873 Healy was the first president of a majority-white school who was an African American. (Booker T. Washington became President of Tuskege in 1881, but that was an college for African Americans.) Do you think Healy being the first is worth mention in the History article?
Also, many schools went through a transition to become multiracial. In Southern schools, this involved dropping formal segregation policies. In Northern schools, this involved moving from token minority enrollments to affirmatively recruiting minority students. For example, when or why did Georgetown found its Center for Multicultural Equity and Access? It is very strange that Georgetown has been located in a city with a very large African American population, but that population goes to UDC and Howard rather than Georgetown. In contrast, Trinity Washington University was a Catholic college that attracted suburban white girls and transformed itself into a school that today draws a very urban student body that is only 9% white. Some combination of events (perhaps in the 1960s) brought Georgetown to where it is today, and that should be considered for the article. Racepacket (talk) 05:10, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As noted on the user talk page, you might want to cover: 1) introduction of coeducation, 2) introduction of black studies and increase in minority enrollment and 3) roll of the campus during the peace demonstrations of the 1970s. Racepacket (talk) 00:16, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Now, the loaded questions you put forth there are about campus construction, and evolution of curriculum and percentage of on-campus students. Those would require more work, and I'm not sure we need it all. The curriculum evolved much like other schools, and I just don't know if there's anything particular that we can point to. Construction has continued in the last 15 years, but I worry that singling out new projects risks recentism. The buildings we mention here are the first two, Healy Hall, the Observatory, library, and ones for the new campuses, like the Med School and Law School. Still, I can see mentioning the new Business School building and the ICC, since schools are now headquartered there.

It is your judgment call, but the reader sees that curriculum was changed before the turn of the 20th century by Healy, and then the article is silent, leaving the unstated assumption that nothing changed since. If there is some other milestone on the academic front, you might want to include it. Similarly, if was there a general trend toward a greater portion of students living on-campus, you might want to state that. Racepacket (talk) 05:10, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have found this in the 2000 Campus Master Plan, " As a result of these community-focused proposals, the percentage of undergraduates living on campus will increase significantly from the current level of 78% to 90% once the Southwest Quadrangle is complete. Looking ahead, if the University were to utilize the full phased-in enrollment increase of 389 by the year 2010, no fewer than 84% of our undergraduates would live on campus. This modest proposed enrollment increase is essential because it gives Georgetown the flexibility to meet the costs of our academic programs. Georgetown has not implemented the full enrollment increase allowed under our 1990 Campus Plan." [2] Racepacket (talk) 13:19, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I can also look for percentages, but I think its been fairly steady, with periods of off campus growth, followed by backlash and on campus growth. I do wish I had historic numbers of students to show the campus growth, but am not sure that's available. Lastly, the fiction (or ex-trivia section) is here because the main page is an FA and I think that even a well sourced trivia section would risk loosing that. So much thanks for your review, and I'd love you further thoughts on some of these things!-- Patrick {_oѺ^∞} 00:18, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is impossible to cover every event in the history of Georgetown University, but please think about whether you have covered every major formative event that has given Georgetown its character. For example, the opening of the Liaison Office in Shanghai, China in 2007; its diversity initiatives; imposing a requirement on all students to take two courses in Philosophy and Theology; The African American Studies Program at Georgetown University was founded in 2003; the founding of the Women's and Gender Studies Program; the founding of the Women's Center in 1990; etc. might be viewed as major formative events. Please pick any that you think are important.
Please consider renaming the section "Present position" to "1980s to present". The section discusses recent history rather than the present. Racepacket (talk) 12:31, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the advice! I think we cover the transition to coeducation, and to some extent the make up of the student body, but again, it's tough to cover societal change within the purview of this article, and I'm not sure what level of detail a reader would expect. Why should the article cover African American Studies or Women's Studies, when it doesn't cover the Diplomacy Studies or the MBNA programs, things that are more a focus of the school? The numerous interreligious research centers however should get more of a mention, and I will work on their role in connection with the current president's focus on intercultural programs.-- Patrick {_oѺ^∞} 02:34, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good points. I'm not trying to dictate the article's scope to you, just to get you thinking about whether it is sufficiently comprehensive. Good work. Racepacket (talk) 03:09, 11 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So I think I've covered all the specific issues you brought up there. I was wondering if you could give me an update on your thoughts, particularly on the work that's gone into the article in the last two weeks. Thanks again!-- Patrick {_oѺ^∞} 19:27, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

An excellent improvement. Good work. Racepacket (talk) 22:13, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Removal of Newly Added 'Reconciliation' Section

@Drjaymoney: I have now twice removed the section titled 'Reconciliation' for the following reasons; I will move through each portion of the section methodically and explain my rationale. As this is an article on the history of Georgetown, the fact that it sold 272 slaves is notable and should be included. This fact is already included and thoroughly expounded upon and cited in the fifth paragraph of Early growth. There is no information contained in this new reconciliation section regarding the historical sale that is not already present earlier in the article. After the first sentence of Reconciliation, there is no information that is salient to the article, as it describes very recent occurrences (which almost certainly are tainted by [[WP:RECENTISM])] and are not consequential in the history of the University. The naming of an individual who is said to have started a project of recognize the said historical facts is certainly not notable. The mention of a temporary working group whose existence lasted around one year is not notable. The renaming of buildings is not notable, since this article does not detail any other naming or renaming of buildings, which has occurred many times in its history. The legacy status is not notable, since no other aspect of the admissions process is mentioned in the article and this would suffer from WP:UNDUE. The composition of the working group or lack thereof is not notable, because if the working group itself is not notable, its membership surely is not. The meeting of two hundred people on a specific date in 2017 is definitely not notable, since the meeting was neither tremendous in size or publicity nor consequential in its symbolic outcome, which was of importance only to few within the university, not to the public at large that will read this article. Lastly, inclusion of a red link to a minor project within the university is not notable.

In short, the historical event of the sale of slaves is notable, since it had large bearing on the university and received large publicity as of late. For this reason, it is already mentioned in detail previously in the article. The recent events themselves surrounding the "reconciliation" of that past event are not notable. Ergo Sum 18:06, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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White supremacy

@User:Ergo Sum, the source was a statement put out by the university itself. Whether you believe it is "silly" or not is merely your opinion. That is, your point of view. Insisting on eradicating any mention of Indigenous history is itself a "political" position that favors settler colonialism and white supremacy. I would say it is "silly" to exterminate mention of this Indigenous history when the institution itself has done so. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 19:50, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, I will ask you to observe the WP:NOPA policy rather than make silly implications of "settler colonialism and white supremacy" against me. Second, your opinion of what Georgetown has or has not "exterminated" does not affect whether something is both NPOV and relevant to an article. As I said in my edit summary, well over a century separated the founding of the university and any potential inhabitation of the campus by any American Indian tribe. Nor have we seen any reliable indication that any tribe inhabited the campus, particularly, as opposed to, say the western Chesapeake region, generally. Therefore, while it is appropriate to discuss which tribes inhabited which regions and to what extent on the articles of those states or regions, it is not appropriate here. The fact that any institution might itself make take some public political or moral stance regarding American Indian history does not change Wikipedia's NPOV, materiality, and relevance requirements for article content. Otherwise, virtually every WP article about any North American company, institution, school, etc. would begin with text about what native tribe resided in a general region and potentially the specific location of that institution - a clearly untenable and unadvisable proposition. Ergo Sum 20:15, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

President Patrick Francis Healy - Correct Education

Healy received his degree from Holy Cross College, Massachusetts, in 1850 thirteen years before Boston College was founded. Therefore the claim that his alma mater was Boston College needs to be corrected. If I have mistaken who the pronoun he refers too, it is highly unlikely (to say the least) that Healy's father was educated at Boston College and in France. Technically Healy's degree was issued by Georgetown itself because, due to anti-Catholic prejudice, Holy Cross could not issue degrees until 1865. Until then, clever fellows the Jesuits, Holy Cross degrees were signed by the President of Georgetown to circumvent the Massachusetts legislature. 2600:8800:4684:BD00:D82D:A80:6CB1:C924 (talk) 03:36, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]