Talk:Irish lace

References

I have added a few references to the Irish Lace page. It needs much more work,ie.The other Irish Laces need to be added. I wil do this when I get the time, or anybody else, feel free to do so.Noraslace (talk) 00:00, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

I also want to add after reading your comments below that, yes I want to promote Kenmare Lace, it was one of the most important needle point laces of its generation but there is very little information on it on the web. I'm trying to put that information out there but am not used to the way that wiki operates and yes I got very frustrated when my content kept getting removed. I'm simply trying to inform people about something that is a part of my home town's heritage and what I have written so far has been completely factual. In addition to this I have at no point tried to portray it as the dominant lace in any catagory. I have simply been including it in places where it only rightly deserves a mention. In relation to the Irish Crochet lace thing. You are Wrong. Irish Crochet lace is actually different from Normal Crochet lace. it uses a much finer hook and thread and is constructed on a special type of fabric. It is nothing to do with the fact that it is irish crochet. Irish Crochet is the name given to this type of lace. I am sorry to hear that you are so worried but if you worked with me instead of simply removing my content then I'm sure that would be a more constructive approach. Finmix (talk) 21:12, 15 November 2009 (UTC) Finmix Finmix (talk) 21:12, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

That's because the edits have been promotional in tone and have linked to only one website Surely if this is such an important kind of lace there would be many sources of information about it. Scholarly book references are usually ideal, when they're possible. For an example of the kind of tone and referencing we strive for, see Sprang. Durova³⁶⁶ 21:45, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

finmix

My mother is going to update directly herself, as she is the expert, I think it would be better if she explained herself. we should have an update for you here tomorrow

82.141.218.147 (talk) 08:58, 18 November 2009 (UTC)finmix82.141.218.147 (talk) 08:58, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I think your comments are very unfair, is there some method for deciding what is or is not a worthy lace? Most of the information on Kenmare Lace was published a hundred years ago before the exisitance of the internet hence why there is not a lot on the web but in answer to your statment which I feel is very condescending "Surely if this is such an important kind of lace there would be many sources of information about it." you can still easily see plenty of references to it in Google Books for example: http://books.google.com/books?ei=nKsBS4OPB4KA4Qb495z0Cw&ct=result&q=kenmare+lace+history&btnG=Search+Books Finmix (talk) 19:52, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

There's been no objection to your development of the Kenmare Lace article. But Wikipedia has a no original research policy. Your creation of this article appears to be asserting that Irish laces of all types have some unifying characteristic that distinguishes them from laces in all other countries. Is that a repetition of a scholarly theory or is it your own opinion? If the latter, then Wikipedia shouldn't be the first point of publication. Durova³⁶⁶ 21:44, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Merge proposal

I completely Disagree, there are many forms of Irish Lace and all are completely different. for example Kenmare Lace is a needlepoint lace made with a needle and thread while bobbin lace is made with little sticks that have thread wapped around them and is made on a cushon. Limerick lace uses a Hook and is made on net while tatting uses a shuttle. the only things all these different types of lace have in common is that they all use thread.

(edit conflicted; formatted) Fully support the merge proposal. It appears that this article has been written by a new account whose primary interest has been to promote "Kenmare Lace" as if it were a dominant (or the dominant) variety of needle lace, and to insert links to a particular website into several textile arts articles. Irish crochet lace is certainly significant to the history of crochet and has some significance to Irish history in terms of economic recovery from the potato famine, but lace itself is more generally organized along the lines of lace construction types rather than on national lines. Individual regions and communities have been known for distinctive lace productions, but it verges on original research to structure an article around the premise of grouping all laces of whatever construction method within a modern country's borders. If my reading on the subject has been accurate, notable Irish crochet lace types were developed by reverse engineering designs that had originated in certain parts of Italy. It would be wonderful for the site if this new editor used his or her knowledge to add referenced and neutral expansions to our coverage of lace subjects, and am a little bit worried by the promotional tone of the contributions so far. Durova³⁶⁶ 21:01, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Then maybe this needs to be merged to a non - regional/national article. It is just that this account has created several articles about Irish lace and at the very least they need merging together. Polargeo (talk) 21:33, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Again I would say here, in relation to the Irish Crochet lace thing. You are Wrong. Irish Crochet lace is actually different from Normal Crochet lace. it uses a much finer hook and thread and is constructed on a special type of fabric. It is nothing to do with the fact that it is irish crochet. Irish Crochet is the name given to this type of lace.

At the same time whatever you want to do with irish lace is up to you, I thought I was contributing, in letting people know what about Irish Traditions made and developed in ireland specifically. Saying that Kenmare Lace is like Crochet, is like saying a truck is the same as a motorbike. Yeah they both have an engine but are completely different in every other way.

Kenmare Lace is a world renound lace and has won international competitions in the past. The reason for the lack of information on the web is the fact that it is going through a revival, which you are not helping with. In any case, I was doing this for my mother so I will need to check back to see would she rather have a Kenmare Lace Page or would it make more sense to be part of an Irish Lace page. I will revert as soon as I know. Thanks Finmix (talk) 20:03, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Also, If we do merge them then what are you going to do about all the other Irish Laces such as the Irish Crochet Lace page, the Limerick Lace page, the Carrrickmaccross Lace page etc..? Finmix (talk) 20:03, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

You appear to be arguing that Kenmare lace deserves an article. Nobody disputes that. The merge proposal is about merging the Irish lace article. Durova³⁶⁶ 21:44, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

finmix

My mother is going to update directly herself, as she is the expert, I think it would be better if she explained herself. we should have an update for you here tomorrow 82.141.218.147 (talk) 08:58, 18 November 2009 (UTC)finmix82.141.218.147 (talk) 08:58, 18 November 2009 (UTC)86.41.70.219 (talk) 23:31, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Nora Finnegan

It has come to my notice that my son has been vigorously championing my cause and that of Kenmare Lace on the Wikipedia pages. I apologise for any offence caused.

I must point out that although my son has now followed a different career path, he did work with me at the Kenmare Lace and Design Centre during holidays and after school. He does have more knowledge on lace making than your average son and in fact the following is a picture of a piece of Limerick Lace designed and made by him at the age of 14. He deserves at the least, not to be summarily dismissed.

I would like to explain to you where we are coming from. To do this I have to give you as brief as possible an account of the history of Kenmare Lace of my involvement in it with the last 20 years. The Poor Clare nuns came to Kenmare in 1861. They were brought here to open a school as the parish priest of Kenmare at that time felt that the best way to raise the people from their knees after the great potato famine was through education. The nuns did that and in no time at all they had 385 pupils The nuns soon realized that once the girls left the school, they had no way of earning a living, so they gave them a skill. That skill was lace-making. Building on the existing knowledge of needlework in the area culminating in orders for 5 pieces of needlepoint lace by Queen Victoria among others. By the 1880s Kenmare Needlepoint Lace had gained an international reputation. In 1881 the nuns had turned their attention to design. Under the tutelage of James Brennan an Art Master at The Crawford School of Art in Cork two books of original designs were produced. They are at present housed in the Kenmare Lace and Design Centre in Kenmare. Medals were won by the nuns for their designs and work in Paris London, and elsewhere. These exquisite designs copper fastened the international reputation of the Kenmare school of needlepoint lace The industry thrived until the 1st world war when handmade things began to decline. By the 2nd world war production had all but ceased. When I became involved in 1991 only 2 nuns still knew how to make the Kenmare Needlepoint Lace. My interest came about through my involvement in a town development association set up to find ways of combating the recession which was griping the country at that time. ( Does anything change?) I had heard of the famous lace making industry which used to be in the town. I thought perhaps we could try and revive it to at least provide a tourist attraction in the town and at best also provide some employment. I went to the Poor Clare Convert ask the nuns if they would consider teaching it again. I met an elderly nun, Sr. Frances McCarthy. As she was soon to retire she said she was not interested in teaching again, but, she said ‘I will show you and you can pass it on’. This came as a bit of a shock to me as I saw myself as a ‘facilitator’. I had not had any intention of learning the lace myself, as I knew nothing about lace, my training being in art teaching. Having thought about it I decided to do my best. The urgency of the project soon became clear, when I realized that with the immanent retirement of Sr. Frances the lace room with its exhibition of beautiful antique lace was to close for the first time in 100 years. I started to take lessons from Sr. Frances and soon learned to love the beautiful needlepoint lace. I began to teach a group of local women. With some government sponsorship we started a co-operative. Its objectives were to provide a premises keep and maintain the antique lace exhibition in Kenmare, to create a tourist attraction in the town and if possible to create employment in the area. The co-op proved to be cumbersome and those running it had no time to make lace. When a heritage Centre was to come on stream some 3 years later the co-op was disbanded and the antique lace was to move to the Heritage Centre. Some 12 months were to elapse before the heritage centre would be ready. What was to become of the lace in the meantime? Having put so much time and energy into it I could not abandon it. The nuns placed their trust in me and allowed me to move the antique exhibition into a (very) small room which I rented up stairs over a jewelers shop on the main street. So, with much of the paperwork dispensed with I moved a much less complicated Kenmare lace and design Centre in there When the heritage centre was ready they found that all the lace would not fit into the space allotted for it. There was a room vacant up stairs in the building. It was decided to put the excess in there and I was asked to look after it. This room became The Kenmare Lace and Design Centre. The people who had made lace for the co-op continued to to supply the Centre, Our number of lace-makers is small and our supply is limited. We make and sell all the other Irish laces also as did the nuns in the poor Clare convent. Any we do not make in the Kenmare area we get from members of the Guild of Irish lacemakers. We run classes in the centre during the winter and I teach Kenmare lace at workshops of the Guild of Irish lacemakers. At the Centre we demonstrate the making of all the Irish laces including, Limerick, Carrickmacross, Irish Crochet lace, and Bobbin lace. We also have examples of Tatting and Mountmellick work the demonstration is usually accompanied with a talk on the history of Kenmare Lace. Since the co-op folded 15 years ago, Rachel McLaren, Sinead Hennessy, Patricia Marsh and most particularly Siobhan Thoma have been unfailing in their continued support. Without the selfless backup of my children, Shane, Denis, Emer, Sandra and 10year old Niamh, the Kenmare Lace and Design Centre would not exist today. They each in turn as they grew up have manned the centre at the drop of a hat; as required, demonstrated lace making and passing on information on Kenmare Lace to tourists or anyone else who happened to pass the way. It has been an enriching experience for them and is now very much part of their personal heritage. This is particularly so for Emer who has made a study of the laces of Normandy as part of her BA and MA degrees You can see Sandra and Niamh making lace on the Kenmare Lace.ie website

You can see from this that the Kenmare Lace and Design Centre is much more than just some shop selling lace, but a place where a very important portion of local history is lovingly preserved and cared for. Word of warning. Do not confuse our web site, www.kenmarelace.ie with another site put up by a person who has nothing to do with Kenmare lace but sells cheap machine lace . It has the Kenmare lace name but with a .com ending! I must also address the point of Kenmare Lace having its own Wikipedia entry. Yes I think that is a good idea, as you can see, it is obviously justified . On the ‘Irish Lace’ entry; yes, I do think that is also a good idea. I believe Irish Lace[j][k][l][m] does have its own identity, as do laces from other countries[n]. Many books have been written, listing various countries and their laces even though techniques may cross political borders. In Ireland our main laces would be; Kenmare Lace[o][p][q][r],a needlepoint lace; Carrickmacross Lace[s];appliqué and guipure; Limerick Lace[t][u], A net embroidery; Irish Crochet Lace[v], made with a crochet hook and based on the chain stitch: Tatting,[w]made with a tatting shuttle and Bobbin Lace[x] made with bobbins, similar to weaving.

I believe all countries deserve their own entry, assuming some person has the time and the expertise do it, but that would surely be up to lace makers or historians from each country. I believe the solution, if it would fit in with Wikipedia criteria, is an entry for each country ,ie. English Lace[y], Dutch lace, Irish Lace etc. In this article or entry would be a brief account of the historical progress of lace making in each country. There would also be a listing the various laces from each country, with links to the entries for each individual lace ie. Limerick Lace, Venetian Lace, Alençon Lace, Kenmare lace etc. These would each be a separate entry/article. Different regions put their individual stamp on a technique, thus making it their own, eg. Alençon Lace, while using the same technique as Venetian lace has added its own individual touches to it, among other things, horsehair[z] used for couching. This justifies its categorizing as a French not Venetian Lace. Anybody visiting Mylène Salvador in Bayeux[aa] will be in no doubt that her bobbin lace is part of the long standing tradition of French Lace. Italian[bb] Lace also did not confine itself to one technique. Although Honiton, Bucks point, Torchon and Bedfordshire are all bobbin laces. Are they not as their names suggest, indeed English? Would Cathrine Barley[cc] and Nenia Lovesey[dd] consider themselves anything other than English lace makers?

In the matter of Irish Crochet Lace[ee] I would like to clear up some confusion on its origins. It is said to have been developed by Mademoisele Riego de La Blanchardière[ff] as a quicker way of making needlepoint Lace. It is however, made with a very fine crochet hook, an old no.60 or a modern .4, and very fine thread, nowadays cotton , as we can’t get good linen thread anymore. Although it was meant as you say to emulate Italian needlepoint, it uses a different technique and has its own very distinctive motifs[gg], including as a tribute to the Italian, a bunch of grapes!

Nora Finnegan

Noraslace (talk) 12:44, 28 November 2009 (UTC)86.41.70.219 (talk) 00:15, 3 December 2009 (UTC)86.41.70.219 (talk) 00:17, 3 December 2009 (UTC)86.41.70.219 (talk) 00:25, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

86.41.70.219 (talk) 00:27, 3 December 2009 (UTC) 86.41.70.219 (talk) 23:22, 3 December 2009 (UTC)86.41.70.219 (talk) 23:25, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

[d] [e][f] Kenmare Literary and Historical Society;(1982) Kenmare Journal [g] [h]. [i] [j] Mary Irwin Jones; (Date unknown), The Romance of Lace, Publisher, Spring Books, London [k] Ada K. Longfield;(1970), Guide to the Collection of Lace [l] Mansion House London;(1883) , Exhibition 1883, Irish Lace [m] Margaret Simeon;(1979), The History of Lace [n] Mary Irwin Jones; (Date unknown), The Romance of Lace, Publisher, Spring Books, London [o] Sr Philomena McCarthy; (1993) Kenmare and its Storied Glen. [p] Nellie o’Cléirig;(2003) Hardship and high Living [q] Ada K. Longfield;(1970), Guide to the Collection of Lace [r] Alan S. Cole;(1888), A Renascence of The Irish Art of Lace making [s] Mary Shields;(1992), Lásadóireacht, A Carrickmacross Lace workbook [t] Nellie o’Cleirig and Veronica Rowe; (1995)Limerick Lace a Social History and a Makers Manual. [u] Manchester school of Embroidery, Needlecraft, (C1900), Limerick Lace Run and Tambour [v] Ethne D’Arcy;(1984) Irish Crochet Lace [w] Lace Guild of Northern Ireland/Ulster Folk Museum edited by Pat todd and Pat Deddis(no date, recent), Lace and Lace making in Ireland [x]Ann Keller ;(recent) The enchanted Lace [y] Pamela Nottingham;(1977),Complete book of English Bobbin Lace [z] Brigitte Delesques Depallle(2002) La Dentelle á l’aiguuille (Needlepoint Lace ) [aa] Mick Fouriscot et Mylène Salvador;(1999) La Dentelle de Bayeux [bb] Elisa Ricci; (1913), Old Italian Lace [cc] Cathrine Barley;(1993)Needlelace, Designs and Techniques, Classic and Contemporary. [dd] Ninea Lovesey;(1985) Needlepoint Lace [ee] Barbra Ballantyne;(2007),Early history of Irish Crochet Lace [ff] Barbra Ballantyne;(2007) Mademoisele Riego de La Blanchardière [gg] Manchester School of Embroidery, Needlecraft; (c1900) Irish Crochet Lace —Preceding unsigned comment added by Finmix (talk • contribs) 00:06, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

ORIGIN

The article states that Irish Crochet has its origins in the mid-1800s during the Irish Potato Famine. There are several online references stating that "Irish Crochet was known as early as 1743 when the Royal Dublin Society awarded prizes for it." Further that, "It was expanded upon during the Famine." but that it already existed.

Does anyone know how to source that with the Royal Dublin Society awards history? Is it verifiable? If so, can we change the section related to the origin to coincide. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Professor Plum (talk • contribs) 04:48, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

History

Hi, I'm new to Wiki! Am editing this page over the next few days as part of an assignment. Am a lace maker myself (Irish Crochet) but have a love for all laces. Loving the way Wiki work, the collaboration. Such a variety of Irish laces, and such a lovely history, be great to have a better page with lots of citations/links, etc Stitchlily (talk) 22:22, 3 December 2015 (UTC)