Talk:Killing of Ali Forney

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A fact from Killing of Ali Forney appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 27 November 2009 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that African-American gay and transgender Ali Forney, once homeless himself, had a homeless LGBT youth center in New York City named after him for his work helping other youths?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2009/November.

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Not transgender?

Why is Ali Forney called transgender in his wikipedia page? He was born male and lived as a male.

Even the organization named after him described Ali as a "gay man."

See:

http://www.aliforneycenter.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=cms.page&id=1066

Ten years ago this month, Ali Forney -- a gay man who for years had struggled with homelessness and drug use -- was fatally shot in the head.

-206.71.239.16 (talk) 23:48, 14 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is covered by the first reference, which has a footnote on the first page clarifying that "Ali Forney identified as both gay and transgender". Note that the article states, based on this reference, that Forney self-identified as female when using the name Luscious. Yngvadottir (talk) 03:00, 15 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Picture

This is a picture of a different person—not Ali Forney 2603:7000:8902:4E38:DDA5:FF66:478B:7633 (talk) 14:17, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I spoke with employees at the Ali Forney Center and have confirmed this photo is NOT Ali Forney but another person who received services from the AFC. We should change this photo ASAP 2603:7000:9B3F:B624:C5BD:80D8:4FE7:35E5 (talk) 22:38, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Pronouns

In 2022, an editor changed the entire article to use they/them pronouns, declaring that this person used them. Is there any evidence to this effect? We wouldn't want to think this edit was motivated by ideology. Zweifel (talk) 21:51, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WP:VICTIM

The article was in violation of policy at WP:VICTIM and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (violence and deaths). For this reason, the article was moved to Murder of Ali Forney in order to comply with our policies on murder victims. Additionally, the page was re-worked to focus on the event and not the person to comply with our policies at WP:CRIME. The article should not contain a biographical info box because this is now an event page. Additionally, a fair use rationale photo of the victim can not be used because the main subject is the crime and not the victim. 4meter4 (talk) 02:12, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@4meter4: Your WP:BOLD move of the article to Murder of Ali Forney is inappropriate. Per WP:MURDERS, Killing of Ali Forney would be an appropriate title as there has been no murder conviction. Removal of the infobox is detrimental to the article. {{infobox victim}} would be logical to use if it still existed, but was merged into {{infobox person}} in 2014, suggesting {{infobox person}} is acceptable to use. Looking at other articles of this type, there is a mixture of {{infobox person}}, {{infobox civilian attack}} and {{infobox event}} used, so there doesn't seem to be any overall concensus of which infobox to use. I can see nothing in WP:NFCC that suggests the image cannot be used in the article.

I would suggest you self-revert and start a move discussion. --John B123 (talk) 07:40, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I am fine with that title if that is the policy. If there was no murder then we shouldn't say so in categories or in sub-headings either. I am opposed to using an infobox that is for biographies per the spirit of WP:NOTMEMORIAL and WP:VICTIM under WP:5P5. You may use one for an event. Likewise, Ali Forney is not the primary subject. Her death is. A photo of her under fair use is tenuous in this context because it no longer carries the same "Contextual significance". The photo would need to be directly connected to the event to meet the WP:NFCC criteria for fair use. A picture of Ali Forney from outside of the event cannot be used under fair use because it lacks direct "Contextual significance". 4meter4 (talk) 07:46, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]