Talk:Macedonians (Greeks)

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This article was nominated for deletion on 11 April 2009. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Infobox removal

Interesting that today Khirurg states that I need consensus for removal on this article, but yesterday he/she thought I needed consensus to keep longstanding content on the ethnic Macedonians page. Anyway, the reason for removal is following some of @TU-nor:'s recent edits that official symbols of political entities should not be included in the infobox of ethnic group articles (such as in Albanians, Bulgarians, and Slovenes). I tend to agree with this that it's not best for the infobox. However, there are plenty of examples of flags being used in ethnic group articles such as in Italians and Russians. One user, @SilentResident:, if I understand correctly, supports removing all symbols from all ethnic group articles. I'm not sure anyone else supports that, I certainly don't find any sense in that and think descriptions of symbols that ethnic groups identify with of course belong on these articles. With regard to this specific article, the flag of the Greek region of Macedonia is included twice. --Local hero ^talk 02:19, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, consistency does not seem to be a defining characteristic of edits in the Balkan area... In my opinion, national or regional flags do usually not have any place in the infobox of ethnic groups. On the other hand, not mentioning the flag in the article at all would be very strange, given its extensive use, not least in the diaspora worldwide. Anyway, having the flag twice is undue. --T*U (talk) 06:56, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I know that consistency is not a defining characteristic in the Balkan topic area. And I doubt it will be unless we use the opportunity of the debate that the symbols has caused, to push forward for less politicized articles of the Balkan people the same way it was done for non-Balkan ones too. In the distant past I used to support the presence of symbols on articles, like how you still do, but that was before realizing how so many articles across the Balkan topic area of Wikipedia have been politicized (or are linked to politics), including the people articles which are supposedly dedicated solely to the people themselves. The Balkan topic area has for decades been strongly politicized and polarized, making any efforts to bring consistency pretty premature. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 10:50, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It is not accurate to say that I support the presence of symbols on articles. I do neither support nor oppose them on principle. I oppose them if I find them undue, I support their mention if it is notable. I have stated just above here that "national or regional flags do usually not have any place in the infobox of ethnic groups", which is why I have lately removed national flags from the infoboxes of Macedonians (ethnic group), Albanians, Moldavians, Romanians, Bulgarians, Czechs and today Greeks. I can think of cases where such flags may be appropriate, but they are very few.

On the other hand, I find it difficult to accept a complete moratorium on mentioning symbols that are an important part of the identification of an ethnic group. As a case in point, I would find it very strange if the article about Greeks did not mention the Greek flag. Few, if any other diaspora groups use the national flag more as a symbol of identification. Just take a look at the average Greek restaurant in any country, or gatecrash on any celebration in the diaspora.

I would have removed the Greek Macedonian flag from the infobox in this article, but since there is an edit war going on, I refrain. SilentResident, it would be appreciated if you could explicitly support the suggestion from Local hero about removing the flag from the infobox. That would be one step forward. --T*U (talk) 12:54, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I totally support removal of the flag of Greek Macedonia from the infobox as I do from all infoboxes of Balkan people and their diasporas. In this context, if you ever run into problems of removal of flags from infoboxes of other ethnicities, please ping me and I will gladly offer my help in their removal. Regarding the present article, I would also appreciate if the question marks in the infobox are also addressed, by replacing them with actual population data and, even better, if someone can make such a beautiful map/chart containing population distribution data for the Greek Macedonians like the ones made for the other articles to use in the infobox. Is there anyone who knows how to create such a map/chart for the Greek Macedonian population distribution worldwide? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 16:31, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That would have been nice. It will, however, be difficult, the main reason being that statistics from most countries will not have such information. They will simply not know how many are of Macedonian descent among those with Greek ancestry. --T*U (talk) 17:09, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes there are no precise statistics. There are two solutions to this. 1) the harder solution is to make a map displaying approximate estimates in varying colors depending how big these populations are estimated to be, or 2) the simpler solution, a map coloring with a plain color the countries that have been confirmed to have at least some of these people living them, without providing any population figures. Both aren't great solutions but can work. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 18:38, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For infoboxes about ethnic groups and subgroups, the best option in my opinion is a traditional costume, and not a map or a flag. The latter have a place in the body text, but for the infobox I really think a traditional costume is the best option, as these articles are about people, not places. Khirurg (talk) 01:11, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's an excellent idea, Khirurg. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 11:36, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'll go along with that idea, too. I have not found any suitable pics at Commons. What we could do, is to borrow the pair of pics from the "Culture" section, at least as placeholders until someone comes up with a better alternative. --T*U (talk) 12:47, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, I was thinking that as well. The culture section is a bit cluttered as it is, with quite a bit of image sandwiching, so it has the benefit of reducing the sandwiching as well. Khirurg (talk) 16:10, 13 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Modern Macedonians as proper description for the Greek tradition

[1] “ARTICLE 7 The Parties acknowledge that their respective understanding of the terms "Macedonia" and "Macedonian" refers to a different historical context and cultural heritage. When reference is made to the First Party, these terms denote not only the area and people of the northern region of the First Party, but also their attributes, as well as the Hellenic civilization, history, culture, and heritage of that region from antiquity to present day. When reference is made to the Second Party, these terms denote its territory, language, people and their attributes, with their own history, culture, and heritage, distinctly different from those referred to under Article 7(2).”

in the above article of the agreement between Athens and Skopje and in particular in article 7.2 the historical continuum from antiquity till today and this its three phases ancient medieval and modern are explicitly reserved for the description for the Macedonia and Macedonians of Greece. As such it makes perfect sense to refer to the Macedonians of Greece of our times as Modern Macedonians as per the rule above. Your thoughts please to include in the consensus Katoitalianos (talk) 04:59, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Katoitalianos, I don't see the designation Modern Macedonians in the text cited above. I can't make such a conclusion, based on the text above, that the designation Modern Macedonians is reserved for any from the parties mentioned above. Please, read carefully Wikipedia:No original research. Keep in mind that all content here must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports his contribution. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 08:05, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]