Talk:Majeerteen Sultanate

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. Community Tech bot (talk) 07:06, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Vandalism?

Hello, User:PhilyOnicus As you are aware the IP address editor labelled my edits as Vandalism even though everything has been correctly sourced with reliable and verifiable sources. I don't think my edits can be defined as vandalism, unless you're against Somali feminist women in Somali History. It is he who is vandalising by removing sourced content without discussing it first. Also, my Edits are not WIKI:SOAP as you put it in your edit summary NoShaqo (talk) 13:54, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Hobyo sultanate map.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:06, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Flag/Map/Coat of arms

As per WP:OR, the flag, map, and coat of arms provided should be removed as they are not referenced in credible sources. The citation provided [1] has no mention of a map, flag, or coat of arms. Koodbuur (talk) 19:57, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Given the two subjects overlap, lets keep the discussion on Talk:Sultanate of Hobyo. Felinepaw (talk) 20:06, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Inconsistent start dates.

Introduction reads that Majerteen started in the XVI century, but information box reads it started in the XVII century. FelipeVO (talk) 03:53, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Original Research

@Limegreencoral Refrain from editing the article until a consensus has been reached.

The Adal Sultanate's borders extended to Cape Guardafui according to Leo Africanus,

According to the 'Some Records of Ethiopia' by G.W.B Huntingford.[2]

"This is what they should be called; they are properly called Kings of Adel, for that is the name of the Kingdom they have possessed and governed for many centuries, to which many extensive territories belong, as may be seen on the map, for he is lord of all that extends from Cape Darfuy and Guardafuy to Mount Felix and Zeila as far as the gates of the Red Sea, and all that we pass when we enter up to Dancaly or Baylur."

What you are doing is WP:SYNTH which combines multiple unrelated sources to state or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources which violates the rules set out in Wikipedia. The sources you've shared like do not speak of a "Majeerteen Sultanate" such as:

Francisco Álvares, a Portuguese missionary and explorer who spent six years at the Portuguese embassy in Abyssinia, wrote about a ruler in the region of Cape Guardafui.

The Kingdom of Adel (as they say) is a large kingdom, and it extends over the Cape of Guardafuy, and there in that part another rules subject to Adel.

This literally states that everything up until Cape Guardafui was under Adal and they ruled on behalf of them? This does not refer to an independent sovereign nation as you're trying to imply. Replayerr (talk) 14:47, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

You keep accusing me of implying a conclusion which is false. Everything I have stated is cited. I address it if you read my topic below. Limegreencoral (talk) 14:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

You are doing WP:SYNTH by combing sources to imply a conclusion. They are all conflicting regarding when the state was founded hence you should include all POVs as they all conflict each other.

Such as the following

According to I.M Lewis, the Majeerteen Somali developed their sultanate during the period of Imam Ahmad ibn Ibrahim Al-Ghazi. While Abdirahman Ali Hersi mentions that oral traditions put the formation between the 15th-16th centuries. Charles Guillain wrote that its developement began 1420.[3] Although the American University considered the emergence of the state to have taken place in the middle of the 19th century.[4]

However Francisco Álvares, a Portuguese missionary and explorer who spent six years at the Portuguese embassy in Abyssinia, stated that the Adal Sultanate extended to of Cape Guardafui and that another rules subject to them. Leo Africanus also described the boundaries of the Adal Sultanate ending at Cape Guardafui. Friedrich Ratzel also mentions the territory of the 'Adal Empire' extending to Cape Guardafui [5] Replayerr (talk) 15:29, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

@Limegreencoral Replayerr (talk) 15:29, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The I.M Lewis source does not contradict with AA Hersi as they both point to the similar same time period of the 15-16th century. There is no specific start date in the article rather a general period of the 15-16th century. Alvarez says that another rules there subject to Adal, but this not necessarily mean that there was not a governing polity already founded. AA Hersi in his source mentions Alvarez as well. Limegreencoral (talk) 15:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Abdirahman Ali Hersi mentions 'oral tradition' as his basis of making an assertion while I.M Lewis doesn't. Abdirahman Ali Hersi explicitly mentions at the end of the 15th and early 16th century while I.M Lewis puts it at the time of Gragn's conquest. You ignore that this does not fall in life with Guillain's claim of 1420 (which is the early 15th century). Alvarez states that it was under the control of the Adal Sultanate and their boundaries extended that far which is also supported by Leo Africanus.

Manuel Almeida literally states in his 'Some Records of Ethiopia' that

"This is what they should be called; they are properly called Kings of Adel, for that is the name of the Kingdom they have possessed and governed for many centuries, to which many extensive territories belong, as may be seen on the map, for he is lord of all that extends from Cape Darfuy and Guardafuy to Mount Felix and Zeila as far as the gates of the Red Sea, and all that we pass when we enter up to Dancaly or Baylur."

which confirms that the King of Adal was lord up until Ras Hafun/Cape Guardafui Replayerr (talk) 15:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

@Replayerr I am fine with changing it to the 15-16th century with no mention of the end of the 15th century. If anything we can even remove the 16th century as AA Hersi says that the state evolved before the 16th century. AA Hersi uses the Alvarez source in stating that this was most probably the same state subject to Adel. He says "state" and Alvarez says a ruler there that is subject to Adel. This does not in any way negate its founding in the 15 or even 16th century. Limegreencoral (talk) 15:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

However it Alvarez's statement contradicts Almeida's which you also ignore where the area was stated to have been governed and possessed by the Kingds of Adel and that they were lords over Cape Darfuy and Guardafuy. You also ignore the fact that Hassan Hirsi uses "oral tradition" as his claim which is required to be mentioned in the article. Replayerr (talk) 16:00, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

@Replayerr I don't have a problem with the sultanate being mentioned as a subject to Adal, AA Hersi even uses the point of Adal extending over Guardafui as a point of all northern Somalis being united. My main point is that Adal extending over the cape does not negate the fact that the Majeerteen Sultanate was established in this region in the 15th century. Limegreencoral (talk) 16:03, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I think we are able to reach a consensus if we can include Almeida's, Africanus', American University's and Ratzel's and reformat the formation. Replayerr (talk) 16:07, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

@Limegreencoral Replayerr (talk) 16:07, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm not sure the point of adding Almeida's, Africanus, and Ratzel as quotes as they pretty much just support what I already included which was Alvarez stating that another ruled subject to Adal. This article isn't really about the extent of Adal. Also if you look at the article, the governance preceding already includes the Adal Sultanate. I would say cite those sources at the end of this sentence.

Francisco Álvares, a Portuguese missionary and explorer who spent six years at the Portuguese embassy in Abyssinia, wrote about a ruler in the region of Cape Guardafui subject to Adel.

For the American University source I would include it like this.

The origins of the state can be traced back to the 15th century. Although the American University considered the emergence of the state to have taken place in the middle of the 19th century.

Also I would bring back the French source, I believe Guillain can be used as a source for the 15th century claim. Limegreencoral (talk) 16:17, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I think another source is required to assert that it isn't fringe so I think including quotes of contemporary historians like Almeida and cite Ratzel and Almeida then. Replayerr (talk) 16:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I would say link to the Adal Sultanate page which already includes a map and mentions the sultanate extending to Guardafui. The Alvarez quote works best for this page because it directly is talking about a ruler in the Guardafui region subject to Adal, whereas the other quotes are just more general about the extent of Adal's territory. I would cite those sources to support the main point of being a subject to Adal, but you don't necessarily need to include the long quotes. Also regarding the American University source, is it the Somalia: a country study book? That is available in the Library of Congress so I would use this https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/master/frd/frdcstdy/so/somaliacountryst00metz_0/somaliacountryst00metz_0.pdf instead of google books and cite the page as well for easier access. Limegreencoral (talk) 16:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Scroll to page 52, "The Majeerteen Sultanate originated..."

I will condense Almeida's narration to stress that the king of Adel was "lord" of all that extends to Ras Hafun and Cape Guardafui.

Also given you take Alvarez's word into account for this article. You should also include his description of the inhabitants and the Portuguese trading with them.

" Next day many wethers and goats were bought. This land where they were bought is between Cape Guardafui and the mountain of Felis, and the distance between them is thirty-six miles. And it is a very sterile land, with very bad people; money is not used there, only cloths and the thicker they are the higher they are valued. And much white salt and much white gum are found in this land; and the Captain Major gave orders for a large quantity to be taken on to be sent to Portugal, as they said it was good for caulking ships. "[6](page 44-45) Replayerr (talk) 17:01, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The Library of Congress is better than Google Books as it includes the entire pdf. I don't mind Almeida's, Africanus, and Ratzel as sources, the only problem is the quotes being mostly about Adal, so if you do include a quote make it relevant to the article. Also as for the other quote, I don't see it as necessary to be added as it doesn't indicate a trading relationship with the Portuguese and seems more like a quick stop. Alvarez came to the horn as part of an embassy to Ethiopia, I don't see the relationship with the Majeerteen sultanate. Limegreencoral (talk) 17:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Well, they stopped in the area that is "subject to Adal" and bought goats and wethers from the locals and gave a brief description of the inhabitants. I think this shouldn't be omitted at all. I have included his travels to Maydh also so he didn't strictly visit Ethiopia. Replayerr (talk) 17:21, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

@Limegreencoral I have included it in the article and added a citation of Alvarez which you can check yourself. Replayerr (talk) 17:26, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes that's fine, I added in the direct quotes. Limegreencoral (talk) 17:38, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

@Replayerr The article as it stands now says that the sultanate was founded in the 15-16th century. I.M Lewis says the time period of Imam Ahmad, AA Hersi says before the 16th century, Guillain says 1420, and Alvarez mentions a ruler that is subject to Adel. Nothing is contradicting and no original research is being done, rather they all point to the same time period of the 15-16th century where a governing polity existed in the North eastern region. Limegreencoral (talk) 15:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

@Limegreencoral You ignore what the American University stated that the polity emerged in the middle of the 18th century and the Adal Sultanate's supremacy over the territory. Guillain doesn't state that it is the late 15th century nor does I.M Lewis either, so it's best to be separated. The infobox incorrectly labels it as a "sovereign nation" when it was hypothetically subject to Adal? Replayerr (talk) 15:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Majeerteen Sultanate Establishment

@Replayerr you keep changing the article claiming that I am doing original research. I want you to elaborate what exactly I am claiming that is original. Below are quotes from the sources cited.

In A Modern History of the Somali

"The Isaq Somali are not mentioned by name, but one branch of them appear to have participated in the Imam's campaigns; and some Dir groups were also involved. Yet the bulk of Gran's Somali forces were drawn from the Darod clansmen, one of whose leaders was his namesake and often confused with the Imam himself. It was probably about this period too, that the Majerteyn Darod clan developed their sultanate which came to control much of the coast of north-east Somalia and whose later history consequently belongs to that of the coastal settlements generally."

In The Arab Factor in Somali History

"Only one important state seems to have evolved there before the sixteenth century. This was a semi-nomadic Sultanate. partially dependent upon seafaring, with headquarters variously at Bosaso, Alula, Gessaley, Bargal, and Hurdio (just across the estuary from Hafun). Traditions of the area trace the state's origins back to the end of the fifteenth or beginning of the sixteenth century. This is probably the same state which Alvarez located near Cape Guardafui."

In Revue du monde musulman Volumes 51-53

"Le sultanat de Migiurtini a été fondé vers 1420, d’après Guillam ; vers 1620 le 17 e sultan Mahmoûd I fit un partage entre ses trois fils, l’aîné gardant le N. avec le titre de sultan. Il y avait traité d’alliance entre eux et les princes de Makalla (Hadramôt)." (French)

"The Sultanate of Migiurtini was founded around 1420, according to Guillam; around 1620 the 17 th sultan Mahmoûd I divided it among his three sons, the eldest keeping the title of sultan. There was a treaty of alliance between them and the princes of Makalla (Hadramôt). Limegreencoral (talk) 14:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I have elaborated that you're doing a form of original research known as WP:SYNTH and I have offered some assistance on how to solve this issue above. Replayerr (talk) 15:30, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Where is the original research? I.M Lewis states that this is the Majeerteen clan developing their sultanate during that time period (15th century). The other source states that a sultanate evolved in the area before the 16th century and is headquartered in the Northern cities of Bosaso, Alula, Gessaley, Bargal, and Hurdio. Definitely not Adal which was headquartered more to the west, and this source cites I.M Lewis who I will mention again specifically names the Majeerteen. Another point, the French source mentions 1420 as the founding date. You keep saying original research yet I am clearly using the sources I cited. Limegreencoral (talk) 15:33, 16 January 2025 (UTC)