Talk:Pathological demand avoidance

So what is PDA?

The article needs to say, preferably in the lead, what PDA is.

The first paragraph of the article says it is a "pattern of difficulties". This is not a description, it is maybe an attempt at an etiology.

The second paragraph says what it is not.

The third paragraph starts "these children". WTF? No children have been mentioned. If PDA is a condition afflicting children, this should have been stated in the lead, along with characteristic symptoms.

 Fixed See what you think, edit if you feel it's necessary. Lova Falk talk 10:04, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. What I see is a huge improvement. I am not involved in this field myself, so I don't have anything to contribute myself - but the start of the article now makes sense. Maproom (talk) 10:12, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh my God. Psychiatry is out of control. What a joke! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.161.251.45 (talk) 03:39, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

I have some sympathy with 71. I have spent much of my life avoiding demands, and have developed techniques more effective and more socially acceptable than panic attacks. I believe that there's nothing pathological about this. Maproom (talk) 06:24, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps it should be clearer that PDA is only a proposed condition at present. It isn't in the DSM-5 or ICD-10. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but it shouldn't be portrayed as a well-established and reccognised condition when it's not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.222.3.135 (talk) 19:21, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

I've edited this to make it clearer that PDA is a proposed condition, not a recognised one. There were some misleading statement, for example describing recognition by the National Autistic Society in a way that could imply official recognition rather than acceptance by campaigners. I've edited these to make it clearer. I've also added a section on criticisms.

I'm making changes as this text is now out of date, and not in line with current practice. NICE relates to processes and expectations and isn't a diagnostic manual. The first paragraph in 'criticism' is the view of the author, and the second relates to a paper from 2003. The PDA Society now list almost 20 peer reviewed articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.0.36.104 (talk) 16:22, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

So soft

We're all this way! Especially me.

The criteria, it seems, are a bunch of intriguing mild character flaws, projected onto an overhead screen in a self-help seminar.

Or a horoscope!

Is this science, or something softer, kookier, and more fluffy? 84.226.185.221 (talk) 18:12, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

can it get better or worse over time

if so, what factors determine that 2001:558:6045:F:78DF:261:A8D5:F46F (talk) 04:19, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

I feel that this is harmful, incorrect representation of autism

I feel that this article is reinforcing harmful, out dated stereotypes about autism and should be reviewed 46.135.66.61 (talk) 09:19, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

TLDR: I agree, the article should be reviewed.

Full comment: I'd like you to be more specific on what parts of the article you are referring to, but I have also seen a few things that are concerning from this article, (mentioned below) and I support the article being reviewed. (If I understand what you mean by reviewed correctly)

The sections coming from this article refer to those with the sub-type as "socially manipulative", and states, "If the demand persists, they may strategically escalate to intentionally shocking behaviour, such as deliberately kicking someone to get out of doing something; afterward, they feel no shame for inappropriate or infantile behavior." as well as having "an appearance of social skills that are superficially acceptable but which have odd features, such as a belief that the normal rules apply only to other people, or that they have the same authority as adults or people in positions of authority;"

Moosetwin (talk) 11:02, 26 August 2023 (UTC), edited 5:18, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Agree OrangeLolipopSnail (talk) 02:25, 28 March 2025 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Psychology Capstone

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 9 January 2024 and 26 April 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Nicolemicha (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Kmcmiche, Crimson Kai, Jalyn547, MPHILLI.

— Assignment last updated by Rahneli (talk) 17:30, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't know what it means that this article is the subject of a course assignment, and I'm a bit concerned. Are students expected to review the subject, including strengths and weaknesses of this article? This article is obviously not a scholarly source, and this issue is still being discussed and studied for validity. Nothing on this page can be considered authoritative. Is this a critical thinking exercise? (FWIW, I like that idea.) Will students be taking into account criticisms of this article, such as those on this talk page? Thanks for any info. Dcs002 (talk) 04:25, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Adult features?

This article is written almost entirely as if this proposed condition involves children only. There is almost zero information or acknowledgement of how this applies to adults. (Does it apply to adults?) I only learned of this proposed condition/disorder/ASD subtype yesterday, and I'd like to learn more, but as an adult on the spectrum I've encountered many roadblocks because of perceptions that ASD is something that happens to children. I think that same bias pervades this article. If this is a proposed condition for pediatric patients, the article should say so. If it is not, then the article needs drastic expansion to describe it in adults too. Dcs002 (talk) 04:33, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree completely. 45.47.122.92 (talk) 13:20, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes! As with so many articles about anything autism-related (and not just on Wikipedia), it would be much more useful to actually autistic people themselves if they also mentioned what it's subjectively like to have PDA rather than just what it's like on a superficial level for other people you interact with, and most of all what it's like for adults at least as much as for children. ZoeB (talk) 09:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

100%, while I was re-reading this article it reminded me quite a lot about how autism is often seen. Moosetwin (talk) 19:15, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm getting the impression there is a need, but none of us has the expertise to add the content. Maybe someone on the Autism WikiProject could help? Dcs002 (talk) 22:44, 2 February 2025 (UTC)

I just posted a request on the WikiProject Autism talk page. We're not having a dispute, so I didn't know where else to go for help. Dcs002 (talk) 22:59, 2 February 2025 (UTC)

@Dcs002 I came to the talk page to say exactly this! It could well be that the article is weighted so heavily towards children because it's reflecting the bias of the academic/medical literature (this wouldn't surprise me). Definitely worth flagging this issue for further investigation. Pineapple Storage (talk) 12:13, 3 March 2025 (UTC)

I have made a start. I'll be busy with other things so please feel free to add to it. I'll come back tomorrow, but I am not very optimistic about finding any good secondary source containing information that can be added to the section. It may simply not exist. Lova Falk (talk) 16:29, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

I have finished. It is not much, but there is not much out there. I wrote in a way to make it possible to add a couple of (hopefully) useful links. Lova Falk (talk) 06:59, 6 March 2025 (UTC)

Thank you so much for this! Even though there is little to report on PDA in adults, the fact that there has been so little done is an important part of the story. These changes and additions satisfy the concerns I had. Thanks again! Dcs002 (talk) 20:40, 14 March 2025 (UTC)

You're welcome Dcs002! Lova Falk (talk) 06:37, 15 March 2025 (UTC)

Constructive Criticism: Some Misleading Descriptions of PDA

I know not a lot is understood about Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA), so this is meant to help, constructive criticism. It may be a bit harsh a points, but I have strong feelings about this. I believe this page's terminology is misleading to the core situation to this disorder. I also believe we need to be mindful of people with this condition feelings with our choice of words. This page uses a hurtful array of words, that I believe they also mislead the audience of what this disorder truly is and those people who have it intent. We are not ignoring the demand and we are not wanting to refuse. We are stuck, stuck in uncontrollable, irrational anxiety, which sometimes might get to fear, of the demand. I know this because I am an adult with Autism with Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA). This stems from extreme anxiety, 24/7, since birth. I do not truly know what calm is. It is not that we do not want to do the task. We want everyone to be happy, just doing the task can seem so overwhelming and fills us with more anxiety.

When a demand is asked of me directly, I freeze or sometimes meltdown, depending on how stressed I already am. What has helped is when other's approach situations differently by changing the sentence. The way things are worded are very vital to one with the PDA to thrive in life. For example, instead of "It's time to get up." (which makes me freeze and not get out of bed on time), people say "Good morning." (which then I can get out of bed and can get on with my day because I know that means it's time to get up) and that has been life changing for me. Giving 2-3 options in a question are great way of helping us too. Also, forming a question about starting a step in the task helps too, such as for a shower "Are you ready to get the water turned on?".

I believe changing up words would help people understand PDA more. As well as adding some professionals ways of how to help overcome PDA's daily challenges.

Dear writer(s), may I change the approach without changing the facts, I will have a PDA professional(s) I know review it beforehand? You may review it beforehand too if you'd like. I just need to know how to get it to you (I am a bit new at this). Music907 (talk) 03:40, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia, @Music907. Our community has lots of people with autism, anxiety, and other forms of neurodiversity, so I think you will fit right in.

You do not need to have a professional review your changes. Sometimes it is even unhelpful (for example, an expert might be very good with their real job, but not very good with writing). We want everyone to contribute. However, "big" or "sudden" changes often surprise people, so I suggest that you start small. Can you re-word just one or two sentences as your first contribution to the article? Then wait a few days, to give other people a chance to check it on their own schedules, with no pressure on anybody. If nobody complains, then do another small bit. (If someone does complain, then we can all talk it over to decide what we think is best.) Over time, the article will get better.

By the way, I suggest using this link to edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pathological_demand_avoidance&veaction=edit It works more like a Google doc, and I think it's easier for copyediting work. As always, until you click the "Big Blue Button" to post your changes, nothing gets saved or posted, so you can take a look whenever you want, and just close the tab if you want to cancel it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:00, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Mention of PDD in lead and content

I removed "pervasive developmental disorder" from the lead due to the fact that PDDs are no longer a valid classification in the ICD or DSM, so it would not be a proposed PDD any longer. In symptoms for infobox, “emotional instability” is vague and conveys not substantive. It is not necessary to use the exact wording the study has used. As it is now, “emotional instability” and “antagonism” are both undefined. From what I could understand, emotional instability was a reference to emotional lability, which has its own article. Antagonism does not and would have to be explained within this article (with a citation) to be given a proper mention on the symptoms list. My edits were reverted, though none of the editors have accounts. I would highly recommend setting one up as it makes it far easier in these situations. I will tag who I can, thank you.

@2001:4958:2807:FA01:95F8:5102:C42D:EF61, @132.203.169.229 Slothwizard (talk) 00:19, 15 February 2025 (UTC)

@132.203.167.27 Tagging this IP as well. Slothwizard (talk) 07:38, 22 February 2025 (UTC)

My proposal for the first sentence is: Pathological demand avoidance (PDA), also known as extreme demand avoidance (EDA), is a behavioral profile characterized by an intense resistance to complying with requests or expectations and extreme efforts to avoid social demands. Lova Falk (talk) 07:27, 27 February 2025 (UTC)

I like your proposal! Labeling it a mental disorder, particularly on the lead, is probably not what’s needed, and this fixes it. Thank you. Slothwizard (talk) 07:33, 27 February 2025 (UTC)

Good! I changed it. Also, I would propose to simply remove the sentence: "Alternatively, some children may meet the criteria for both oppositional defiant disorder (ODD) and PDA, as the two are not mutually exclusive diagnoses." First of all PDA is not a diagnosis. Second, when I look for sources to support this, all I can find is website urging people to differentiate between the two. However, these websites are not WP:RS (they are blogs, parenting support sites etc) so I cannot write an alternatve sentence about the difference. Lova Falk (talk) 08:09, 27 February 2025 (UTC)

Yes, you can change that too. If you find anything else, feel free to be bold. Thanks. Slothwizard (talk) 08:51, 27 February 2025 (UTC)

Thank you Slothwizard, I will be! Lova Falk (talk) 09:10, 27 February 2025 (UTC)

I have made a few edits, and need to move on to something else, so now it is up to you to be bold and edit my edits! Slothwizard, I have scrutinised this sentence: "PDA was demonstrated to have traits are strongly associated with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), emotional lability, and antagonism,[clarification needed] rather than being exclusive to autism." but the problem is that the word antagonism is literally mentioned in the conclusion of Egan's article, and I cannot read the whole article to find out what they mean. On the one hand, this is primary research, on the other hand, these conclusions (that is, that PDA is associated with ADHD, emoional lability and antagonism), are interesting! So what to do with it...? Lova Falk (talk) 09:57, 27 February 2025 (UTC)