Talk:Rags Ragland

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Requested move 30 June 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Consensus is that the use of quotation marks is not consistent in sourcing, and as such there is not a reason to deviate from Wikipedia's typical style. (non-admin closure) TonyBallioni (talk) 01:34, 25 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Rags" Ragland → Rags Ragland – No quotation marks are present in stage credits as seen here and at the Internet Broadway Database and Playbill. Quotation marks are not used in his obituary in The New York Times. The essay Wikipedia:Using nicknames advises against it, and the lede has been rewritten to make the quotation marks unnecessary. WFinch (talk) 00:55, 30 June 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. —usernamekiran(talk) 03:46, 8 July 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. — JFG ^talk 15:06, 17 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. In virtually all of his on-screen credits, he was billed as "Rags" Ragland, as confirmed by his TCMDb entry. American Film Institute Catalog has 1 entry for Rags Ragland and 18 entries for "Rags" Ragland. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 04:38, 1 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. High quality sources such as the NYT do not use the quotes, and they are generally discouraged as part of punctuation for Wikipedia titles. Also wins in an ngram [1] (follow that link and then hit "Search lots of books" to see the results). — Amakuru (talk) 12:16, 7 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. An examination of the guidelines expressed in Wikipedia:Using nicknames shows such discouraged examples as Albert Beeson "Al" Ceesdale or Xen "Fisty" Zounds. We would also avoid such obvious forms as Abraham "Abe" Lincoln or James "Jimmy" Stewart, or even "Abe" Lincoln and "Jimmy" Stewart, since those names were rarely, if ever, visually accompanied by quotation marks.
In the case of "Rags" Ragland, however, the quotes were part of his on-screen stage name, even if those quotes were not generally used in newspaper or magazine references to him. Out of the 19 films (all of which are available online) in which Ragland received on-screen billing, 18 films show his name as "Rags" Ragland (two examples here and [annyas.com/screenshots/updates/anchors-aweigh-1945-george-sidney/] here) and only 1 film shows it in on-screen credits as Rags Ragland.
Thus, even taking into account the discouragement regarding use of quotes-enclosed nicknames, this specific instance is one of a small handful of nicknames which did appear on-screen surrounded by quotation marks and should be accorded special consideration and exception in that regard. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 06:15, 8 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I think this is the more relevant part of the guideline (emphasis mine):

Do not replace part of the subject's real name with a nickname, as in:

• Fisty Zounds

• "Fisty" Zounds

unless the person is overwhelmingly known to the public by the nickname, e.g.:

• Magic Johnson

(Quotation marks are not needed in such a case, because the public is already familiar with such a figure and we know that it is a nickname; the lead will provide the real name anyway.)

Ragland didn't work exclusively in film, and his stage credits don't present his name in quotation marks. — WFinch (talk) 03:30, 14 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Each case must be considered on its individual merits. No one is suggesting that the nickname Magic in Magic Johnson's name or the hundreds of main title headers for those known as Lefty, Sonny or Buddy should be rendered with quotation marks. Such marks cannot be added simply on the whim of an individual article creator or editor. Only in the relatively rare cases of individuals being actually billed in on-screen credits using such form (e.g. Charles "Buddy" Rogers or Don "Red" Barry), should these forms appear in Wikipedia main headers.

The case of Ragland is even rarer since he was never billed as John Lee "Rags" Ragland (the form used in the main header of his Find a Grave entry), but simply as "Rags" Ragland, the only name by which he was known to the public. If the quotes were appended occasionally or inconsistently, one could argue for their removal, but the quotes had been applied 18 out of 19 times and are repeated in all references which reproduce the film credits in their exact form, such as here, American Film Institute Catalog or Turner Classic Movies. Quotation marks are rarely used in Wikipedia main headers, but are warranted in this case for the sake of historical accuracy. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 03:28, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support: The quotations marks are not consistently used in reliable sources, nor by Ragland in his film versus stage careers. This make them unnecessary/extraneous stylization, something Wikipedia always removes per MOS:TM. This result would also agree with the advice in Wikipedia:Using nicknames (which is an essay, not a guideline, but one that I wrote almost all of, so I know what the intended interpretation was). Removing them will be consistent with Magic Johnson, Rip Torn (which is not a made-up name like Slim Pickens; his real surname was Torn), Dizzy Gillespie, etc. We only include the quotation marks in the title in rare cases like Benjamin "Pap" Singleton, where the person was conventionally known by that entire construction, including the quotation marks. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 02:03, 18 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. This is our usual style. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:56, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Announcement of this discussion appears at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 17:54, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Exceptions to rules are indeed rare, but such exceptions do exist. Most of those who use nicknames as professional names or stage names, such as Dizzy Gillespie or Rip Torn, are not billed through the use of quotation marks around their nicknames. But, to reiterate, "Rags" Ragland, who is remembered today primarily due to his comic character roles in nearly 20 MGM films, presents a special case. The on-screen credited billing he received in all, except one, of his films, has been invariably "Rags" Ragland, not Rags Ragland, thus demonstrating that this top studio used the form with the quotation marks deliberately and consistently throughout Ragland's career. On that basis, this particular rare case should be considered the exception that permits the retention of the quotes. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 17:54, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.