Talk:Randa Kassis

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Merger discussion

As far as I can tell, the Movement of the Pluralistic Society was one of several initiatives sponsored - or, at least, backed - by Russia and the Assad regime to promote an "acceptable" Syrian opposition. The Astana Platform deserves a page - even though it needs to be rewritten - but I am not convinced that the Movement of the Pluralistic Society needs to have a separate page from that of Ms. Kassis. This movement does not seem to have had any elected members and its activities may have been largely limited to those of its frontwoman. IMHO a mention in the Randa Kassis page may be sufficient. We may ask ourselves a similar question about the Coalition of Secular and Democratic Syrians, another group headed by Ms Kassis. Psychloppos (talk) 09:03, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This movement already proved his involvement in a democratic process in Syria .

Psychloppos seems to be obsessed by Randa Kassis .

All changes to Randa Kassis’ page by this individual looks like an harassment or sectarian political activism aimed at erasing or muzzling anyone who does not have his opinions.

All this is revolting and contrary to the behaviour of an editor on Wikipedia. 2A02:C7C:AAE0:5600:245E:5374:EEF0:8BA9 (talk) 16:36, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh dear. Psychloppos (talk) 08:20, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Enough diffamation

The Movement of the Pluralistic Society was founded and chaired in 2012 following the exclusion of Randa Kassis, which occurred after her warnings about the rise of Islamists. At that time, she wasn’t even looking towards the Russians. On the contrary, she was meeting with the Americans and the French. [1]https://www.reuters.com/article/syria-crisis-opposition/syrian-dissident-assad-will-fall-only-with-alawite-help-idUKL6E8JNL4J20120823/ Un nouveau parti laïqueref:https://www.humanite.fr/monde/syrie/un-nouveau-parti-dopposition-laique Randa kassis on Radio France Randa Kassis at the conference "The Group of Friends of the Syrian 185.127.194.162 (talk) 16:27, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Protecting Article Neutrality

From my recent observations regarding the article I created, I have noticed several disruptive edits aimed at removing reliable sources and introducing biased or misleading information into the content, particularly concerning Randa Kassis and the Movement for a Pluralistic Society.

I kindly urge all contributors to uphold Wikipedia's principles of neutrality and objectivity and to refrain from engaging in edit wars. Additionally, I request the administrators to take the necessary steps to safeguard the article from vandalism by anonymous or fake accounts seeking to insert misleading information, especially in light of the recent political changes in Syria. Tortino66 (talk) 18:55, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, we should try to present a neutral view of Mrs Kassis' role, and not obfuscate the fact that her initiatives have been controversial among the Syrian opposition. Psychloppos (talk) 08:20, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tortino66, please do not use AI generation to communicate on talk pages. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Randa Kassis and the Movement merging

Regarding the issue of merging, I believe merging the movement into Randa Kassis's article is not objective. The movement is independent in its subject and classification on Wikipedia and cannot be considered solely part of Randa Kassis's biography. Especially since the article contains its own sources and topics that are not tied to any individual. I suggest focusing more on the movement in one of the sections of the article and providing a link to the subtopic on the movement's page. Tortino66 (talk) 20:36, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Proposing a clean up

Hi everyone,

I hope you’re all doing well. I noticed that the Randa Kassis article has been flagged for neutrality issues, and I’d really like to clean up the page.

Here’s what I’m thinking of doing:

Rewriting parts of the article to make sure the tone is neutral and avoids anything that might seem biased.

Adding more balance by including relevant criticisms or alternative perspectives, where appropriate.

Double-checking all the sources to make sure they’re reliable and independent.

I would like to show my transparency and good intentions. If you agree, I can start making improvements in a few days.

Best Ecrivain Wagner (talk) 15:16, 22 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Ecrivain Wagner, a few people have already worked on some of those issues, but I'm interested in which criticisms or alternative perspectives you're thinking of adding to the article?

Since this is a disputed article and you've pretty much said you're planning to overhaul the whole thing, it might be helpful to go over your planned edits in advance then proceed on consensus as your suggestions are a bit too vague right now.

Also, which parts of the article do you feel are unbalanced?

If you find any unreliable sources then we can discuss them here too?

Once everything has been addressed then we can maybe ask for the tag to be removed and I'm happy to help if I can. Blue Sonnet (talk) 05:24, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Blue Sonnet, thank you for taking the time to reply. You’re absolutely right, clarity is crucial, especially for a disputed article like this. I suggest modifying some areas that seem unbalanced, particularly, for example, [Until the age of 17…entanglements] and (Called on minorities in Syria to support the fight). I can take some time to review sections further.

I’ve checked the references and believe they are reliable, but if you have specific thoughts or criticisms about parts of the article, I’d really like to hear from you. If you prefer, I can draft all suggested changes here before making them public. Thank you as well for your help with the tag removal when we get to that stage, it’s much appreciated.

Best regards, Ecrivain Wagner Ecrivain Wagner (talk) 06:36, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good, we need to be careful with BLP articles! I was wondering whether the Biography might be better with a "Professional life"-type section as it's pretty big, I might look at other similar articles to see how they're laid out. The sources seem generally ok to me too, but I've only had a quick skim so far.

I'm definitely thinking we should lay out any plans here first to avoid causing any further problems, we can also ask for advice if needed that way?

The NPOV tag was put on a while ago so hopefully we don't have a lot to do... Blue Sonnet (talk) 08:10, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi again,

I’ve been looking at the content on the page and had a few suggestions to adjust the tone and wording for neutrality. Let me know if these work for you, I will publish them.

The description of Kassis’s early life: “Until the age of 17, Kassis avoided political involvement and refrained from joining the ‘shabiha,’ the youth wing of the ruling Ba’ath Party.” and remove the phrase, “I learned how to resist..she said”

When referencing her TV and radio appearances, I’ve simplified it to: “She appeared as a commentator on cultural and societal issues on various French television and radio platforms,”.

In terms of her initiative and ties to Russia, the language has been softened. Instead of mentioning “perceived close ties with Russia,” the new wording states, “others criticised the initiative, referencing her ties with Russia,” which removes any insinuation of judgement.

I’ve also condensed the mention of her meeting with Donald Trump Jr. to: “Kassis met with Donald Trump Jr. in Paris in 2016. The meeting was later mentioned in the context of an investigation into contacts between Trump’s associates and Russian interests, though no formal accusations were made against Kassis or Baussart.”

Regarding her initiative, I suggest “Kassis’s initiative received mixed reactions from the Syrian opposition, with some viewing it as a step towards dialogue and others expressing criticism”.

Lastly, I shortened the section about the constitutional committee to focus on the essentials: “She proposed the creation of a constitutional committee, which was later adopted by the UN and Astana troika (Russia, Iran, and Turkey).” What do you think? Best regards Ecrivain Wagner (talk) 16:20, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Please note, user:Ecrivain Wagner has since been blocked for sockpuppetry dating back to 2016, primarily in relation to the editing of articles related to Randa Kassis. The other sockpuppet account was user:Hazar Sam, although others may also have been utilised. I'd therefore urge caution to any other user considering implementing any of the proposals suggested above. Axad12 (talk) 20:58, 25 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Axad12 Thanks so much for the update, I was a little wary of this one, hence my insistence of the edits being discussed on Talk first! Blue Sonnet (talk) 09:18, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Blue Sonnet.

For further detail please see the ANI thread here [2].

It has been suggested by other users that (a) the sockpuppetry relates to a wider range of accounts (including those involved in earlier talkpage threads above) and (b) that the sockpuppetry has been part of a long running and concerted campaign of promotion in relation to Randa Kassis (which extends to the article for her husband Fabien Baussart and certain articles re: the Syrian peace process).

It is possible that the other accounts are not sockpuppets, but they certainly seem to share a similar agenda and to operate in concert with the known sockpuppet accounts.

I've not looked into the issue of promotion, but I take that suggestion seriously given the duration of the sockpuppetry and the extent to which the accounts involved are the primary authors of the relevant articles. I'll also note that "promotion" can cover a wide range of things - it doesn't have to be simply promotional language, it can also be attempts to give excessive coverage to an individual, attempts to present a one-sided view, etc. It can be quite subtle. It is reasonable to assume that something along those lines has been attempted here, and I assume that is why a previously unsuspected sockpuppet account tried to take a leading role in discussing how the article might be re-written (rather than leaving that matter to other end users).

I won't go any further than that, and will simply say that it is reasonable for there to be concerns.

If you look at the recent SPI [3] and the material on the Hazar Sam talk page [4] then it is clear that the end user has been operating in very bad faith. I suspect that further unidentified sock accounts may very well exist and that this is not the end of the user's nine year campaign of WP:SPA-type editing around this subject. Axad12 (talk) 09:56, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Axad12 Yep that's not a good history, plus some of the edit suggestions definitely veer on the side of whitewashing under the guise of "conciseness". I'm not happy with considering any of those edits on that basis alone. If I see any further suspicious activity I'll definitely raise it. Blue Sonnet (talk) 01:55, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Merger discussion (2)

After the merging of two previous Kassis-related pages into this article, I suggest that we also merge Coalition of Secular and Democratic Syrians. That group did exist but the few sources I could find about it suggest that it was a very small group and that it rapidly evaporated. The article is unlikely to expand in the future so the best thing might be to merge it to the Randa Kassis page. @Axad12 and The Squirrel Conspiracy: Psychloppos (talk) 16:10, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I agree.

As an unrelated point, following the recent resolution of the ANI thread mentioned in the recent post in the thread above... would it be worth raising the same sock puppetry issue at French Wikipedia? I note that The Squirrel Conspiracy has been active at fr.wp in the past. My French is not sufficient to do so, but I'd strongly advocate for any user to point out to fr.wp that they have the same long running issue that was recently resolved on en.wp. Axad12 (talk) 16:22, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I don't consider myself active on fr.wiki - I just follow problems from Commons to other projects and fix them. The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 18:17, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I had a quick glance. Apparently they didn't have much damage on their page about the Syrian opposition (which is not very developed but doesn't seem to include much Kassis material). The Randa Kassis page might be kind of promotional promotional, but nothing unfixable. What is more problematic is that what should be their page about the Syrian peace talks is only about the so-called "Astana process" and they have another page about the "Astana platform". Psychloppos (talk) 08:51, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Axad12 and The Squirrel Conspiracy: just merged the pages. I also removed some fluff about Kassis being an "anthropologist" (maybe she is one, since some French media have called her that: but the only real evidence was a link to a self-published book so we might need a better source), being a well-known peace and human rights activist (all the sources just alluded to her participation in events linked to the Syrian conflict) and so on. This page probably still needs a cleanup, though. Note that the page has been created in 27 languages (not that it means anything about these versions' content)

Amusingly, I had to correct a link because someone had confused Kassis' 2011 group with the much more significant Syrian National Coalition (this may not have been done on purpose). Psychloppos (talk) 17:25, 6 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]