Talk:Roland TR-808

Roland "Analog Mafia"

The names of some of the additional engineers and their specific roles has surfaced and been documented in two places, so it would be great to incorporate these details. https://rc-808.com/about-us/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/history-tr-808-drum-machine-180975205 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nsputnik (talk • contribs) 02:24, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Transistors

Although it's hard to source - the only solid information comes from blogs, e.g. - the defective transistor was apparently a 2SC828-R noise generator. It seems that Roland did manage to source replacements (presumably they expected to sell more than 12,000 808s) but it required hand-selecting, which would have been costly. This might explain why different 808 units on Youtube sound subtly different. -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 15:16, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

This note inspired me to update the article to clarify that the faulty transistors were deliberately chosen and not an accident. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 22:22, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

TR-808 is to Hip Hop what the Stratocaster is to Rock, really?

The Stratocaster is famous for being an ingenious piece of industrial design by Leo Fender and his colleagues, and is the most commercially successful mass produced electric guitar form. The Strat has been cloned, copied and modified to the point where its double cutaway body shape is the basis for many contemporary electric guitar and bass designs. This is absolutely indisputable.

However, the Stratocaster as a sonic musical tool, and not a piece of visual iconography, is not nearly as influential to the sound of Rock music as the TR-808 has been to the sound of Hip Hop and all other forms of electronic music!

When listening to Rock music performed with a Stratocaster, its nearly impossible to differentiate it from other types of electric guitar, especially other Fender guitars. Again, the Strat has always been emphasized as an iconic looking piece of gear, above and beyond its sound.

Contrast this with the TR-808. Everyone who knows 80s Hip Hop and electronica, can recognize the sound of the 808 without having any notion of, or need for the look!

The cultural influence of the TR-808 sound is obvious, the Stratocaster sound, not so much. Comparing Strats and 808s makes no sense any more than say, comparing the sound of the gated reverb production technique, to the look of a Rogers snare drum. 216.59.229.84 (talk) 05:28, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Here's the thing. That comparison has been made by three separate writers in reputable publications. Your personal opinion is just that. It's a point well made, but you haven't been published by a reputable publication so anything you put into an article would be considered original research (WP:OR). Wikipedia is not based on the truth, it's based on verifiable references (WP:NOTTRUTH). However, if you can find any counter opinions supported by reliable, verifiable sources then that would be a welcome addition to the article. 10mmsocket (talk) 06:43, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Calling the 808 the "Stratocaster of Electronic music" is just a self-replicating meme that gained ascendance, probably due to Wikipedia maintaining this false equivalency - an equivalency that's in the domain of marketing and promotion, versus presenting factual information. Surely, Wikipedia is more concerned with facts than hype.

No one disputes the 808 is an "origin sound" of much rap, dance and electronica from the 1980s onward, as the sources claim. However, is the Stratocaster the origin sound of rock music? No sources anywhere ever claim this. The Stratocaster certainly was not the first commercially available electric guitar. And as far as the "sound" of rock music goes, how far are unscrupulous commentators - from publications that are of general interest and not musicology or any authoritative domain - how far are they from calling Gibson guitars the "LinnDrums of rock" or some other absolute nonsensical rubbish?

Further, what can be said for other iconic gear, such as the Roland TR-909? The Marshall JCM800? Vox AC30? Gibson Les Paul? What other false equivalencies can be pedalled on their fronts? Are these the "Rolls Royces / Ferraris / Lamborghinis / Addidas' / Nikes" of their respective genres?

To keep information relevant and focused, it has to be kept honest. Presenting false equivalencies as factual, due to subjective memes catching on, says more about the confirmation bias infecting Wikipedia than presenting things on things on their own merits, especially things that are so unique, that NO equivalencies need apply.

The point being of course, is comparing apples and oranges because both are fruit makes more sense than trying to build out spurious equivalencies that actually add nothing to the discussion. BTW - the "apples and oranges" axiom exists in Western culture, because comparing false equivalencies is silly. 216.75.166.59 (talk) 07:18, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

None of that matters I'm afraid, because Wikipedia is based on what sources say. If you don't want Wikipedia to say what sources say, you have a bigger problem with the Wikipedia system and this article isn't the place to fight that battle. Popcornfud (talk) 10:40, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Launched when electronic music had yet to become mainstream... Electronic music already was?

This was during 1982-1983, when synthpop was huge in the UK and the US, and beforehand you had the advent of YMO and Kraftwerk during the 1970s. Wouldn't a better lead be 'Launched when sample-based drum machines were at their peak?' because it seems like alot of synth-pop favored sampled drum machines over analog drum machines, and this was why the TR-808 was relatively cheaper as all the pop groups with money seemed to favor the Linndrum and Fairlight CMI (among others). This might work as a better lead overall, imo

TuaamWiki (talk) 01:53, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

That statement is based on this Fact article, which says: Roland’s TR-808 sounded thin and electronic by comparison, and at this time there simply wasn’t an appreciation for electronic music in the wider mainstream.

Wikipedia can only say what sources say, so if we want to change this we'll need some sources that say otherwise. I have added "many producers wanted more realistic drum sounds" (sourced in the body of the article) as it seems relevant for the lead. Popcornfud (talk) 02:04, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Alright, fair enough. TuaamWiki (talk) 01:22, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

The Fact article is problematic, because electronic music had been growing in popularity throughout the late 1970s and early 1980s. By the time that the TR-808 was launched and popular, the Roland CR-78 had been featured on many famous pop records. The reason why the TR-808 flopped commercially at the time of its launch is because, as the article correctly says, its analogue synthesized sounds were seen as old fashioned compared to a Linn and other digital sampling devices that were appearing at the time.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 10:09, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

How the TR-808 sounds are actually made

"The 808 is noted for its powerful bass drum sound, built from a sine oscillator, low-pass filter and voltage-controlled amplifier." This statement is factually incorrect. The TR-909 generates it's bass drum this way but not the TR-808. If you look in the Roland TR-808 service manual, you will see that the bass drum is a short spark of a pulse wave which is sent through a resonant T-Bridge network circuit. The circuit basically acts like a ruler being twanged on a school desk but the resonant filtering and feedback of the T-bridge leaves behind a characteristic click which trails into a long resonant sine.

"This sound generator is composed of a multi-feedback, bridged T-network including 1/2 IC12 (pins 1—3) as an active element. The decay time of the resonating waveforms can be controlled by adjusting feedback amount by VR6"

Modern edm producers who use digital audio workstations are usually meaning the 909 method of making bass drums when they say 808's. MatuaJacob (talk) 05:26, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

“The 808 was eventually used on more hit records than any other drum machine.”

What is the source for this? It seems like it could be true, but how does one know this? Is this original research? How would this be determined? Vactrol (talk) 18:18, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

It is cited to this book. Personally, I think this is a bit of an overstatement, as there are only two really big 1980s chart hits that use the TR-808, which are "Sexual Healing" and "I Wanna Dance With Somebody". The main success of the TR-808 was later on in its career, when it became one of the must-have instruments for techno and hip-hop producers.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 18:54, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! That's my error, that citation slipped by me and it stood out as seeming difficult to measure, though possible. Vactrol (talk) 07:00, 27 August 2024 (UTC)