Talk:Sinking of the MS Estonia

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Sweden Mid‑importance

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MARIN ALPIN_PIER-17_ [58° 59′ 48″ N 10° 02′ 09E]

{{geodata-check}}

The following coordinate fixes are needed for

[58° 59′ 48″ N 10° 02′ 09E]

—78.63.114.0 (talk) 18:23, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not done. The coordinates you've given above are not even for a location in the Baltic Sea, where the Estonia sank; they point to a location on dry land, in Stavern, Norway. I have, however, tweaked the coordinates in the infobox a bit to match (to the nearest minute) those given in the "Final report on the MV ESTONIA disaster" cited in the refs under "General"—and to match those given in the article text under "Sinking". I have no idea what "MARIN ALPIN_PIER-17" in your heading refers to, but nothing of that sort is mentioned in the article. Deor (talk) 20:31, 11 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"free surface effect"

This is explained in the text as "the fluid's swirling motion across such a large area hampers the boat's ability to right itself after rolling with a wave", which isn't merely confusing but doesn't even appear to be right. From examining the linked article "swirling" (which implies a circular component of the motion) has nothing to do with it, and the "large area" affects the size of the effect but not its nature. In a container the "liquid" (or grain, or similar) shifts in the direction of the roll if free to do so (if, e.g., there is air space). I don't claim to be an expert on this, but it seems to be as simple as that. Andyvphil (talk) 09:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Chris Bollyn makes detailed allegations

This man claims to know a lot about the sinking, believing that the vessel was being used for smuggling arms, there was sabotage and the relatives have been blocked from having an inquiry. He says that access to the wreck site is forbidden and few of the bodies were brought up. By 2004 the law-suit was stalling and would fail. https://www.bollyn.com/estonia-sinking/ He says "On November 30, 2004, a program on Swedish state-supported television (SVT 1) reported that there had been a secret arrangement between Owe Wiktorin, Sweden's highest military commander at the time, and Ulf Larsson, then general director of customs, to clear specific shipments of military technology from Estonia, without inspection, on arrival in Stockholm." and "Sven Anér, veteran Swedish journalist and author, has provided AFP with information about the Middle Eastern connection with the weapons smuggling on Estonia. This material was censored from the SVT 1 exposé and has not been reported in the mainstream press." "in 2002 ... Süddeutsche Zeitung, a leading German newspaper, published details of his weapons and space technology business in connection to the Estonia catastrophe." Chris Bollyn links the case to "a group of Russian nationalists from the former Soviet intelligence agencies being behind the sinking ... opposed to the wide-spread plundering that occurred after the breakup of the Soviet Union ... The window of access to Soviet military secrets slammed shut in July 1998 when Putin became director of Russia's Federal Security Service." I have made no effort to look into the affair further.2A00:23C7:C105:7401:8483:7344:FFAD:3E91 (talk) 16:16, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If it's not reported in the mainstream press it shouldn't go in the article. Anyway, if the visor had been blown off you would expect that to show, since they have it on display. Andyvphil (talk) 09:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mayday messages

The article states the following: "Estonia directed a call to Silja Europa and only after making contact with her did the radio operator utter the word 'Mayday'."

This seems to be in error, as the source cited for this itself states about the Mayday communication that "It cannot, therefore, be excluded that those on the bridge had already tried to get out a 'Mayday message' much earlier," and that a "sailor reported that they had heard a very weak 'Mayday' from the ESTONIA already about 30 minutes before the 'Mayday' at 01.22 hours which finally triggered off the rescue operation" ... "the first official 'Mayday' was recorded by the Marine Rescue Coordinating Centre (MRCC) Turku, also very weak and very strange, at 01.21.55: 'Mayday, Mayday Estonia, please.'" ... "Also on the bridge of the Swedish ferry SILJA SYMPHONY this 'Mayday' was heard and the watch A.B. sailor Jan Öhrn started the tape recorder, thus the subsequent distress communication is fully recorded..."

This information explains why the first thing you hear in the publicized recording of the calls is the Estonia trying to confirm radio contact with the Silja Europa -- this, the best, recording only starts in response to hearing the first Mayday call from the Estonia. I assume that's what lead to the current phrasing which says that the Estonia waited to make/confirm contact with the Silja Europa before saying the word Mayday. In reality, the report cited literally says that the first Mayday call -- which itself might have even been preceded by earlier, weaker and unreported Mayday calls -- was not received secondary to establishing radio contact with the Silja, but indeed was the first communication recieved not only by the Silja but also by Turku's station and others, preceding the published recording made by the Silja in reaction to hearing the first mayday, in which the first things heard are the Estonia trying to establish contact w the Silja.

Could this be changed to be more accurate to these facts? Especially since the radio operators/crewmembers in question died serving in their positions, working to save the lives of their passengers? 66.205.169.248 (talk) 21:12, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What kind of wind is meant: sustained wind speed or wind gusts?

The current article text contained:

”According to the final disaster report, the weather was rough, with a wind of 15 to 25 m/s (29 to 49 kn; 34 to 56 mph), force 7–8 on the Beaufort scale and a significant wave height of 4 to 6 m (13 to 20 ft) compared with the highest measured significant wave height in the Baltic Sea of 7.7 m (25 ft 3 in).”

Since a wind speed of 25 m/s corresponds to force 10 on the Beaufort scale, I have changed the text accordingly.

From the text it is not clear, however, whether it intends to give the sustained wind speed (averaged over 10 minutes [1]) or the wind gusts (maximum three-second-averaged wind speed [2]), or even an unspecified mix of both.

That complicates matters, since only sustained wind speed may be expressed in Bft; wind gusts are expressed in m/s or other units but not Bft.Redav (talk) 23:03, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]