Talk:Southern hospitality

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Comments

Reverted to Aug 2006 stub because subsequent changes didn't fit Wikipedia guidelines for a variety of reasons. Sudiekins' contributions were particularly nonsensical and inappropriate. Jamiem 22:22, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't southern hospitality a uncomfortable term because of its inherent ties to slavery —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.227.69.38 (talk • contribs) .

No more then the state name "South Carolina" is "uncomfortable because of its inherent ties to slavery" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.12.164.100 (talk • contribs) .

No, southern hospitality is an uncomfortable term because it doesn't exist because southerners are egotistical and self-centered, all of this coming from someone who has lived in Tennessee his entire life. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gorovich (talk • contribs) .

Doesn't matter if it exists - communism doesn't exist anywhere, and neither does Chewbacca, but we've got articles on both. bd2412 T 21:59, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually Souther Hospitality exists and prospers well. Coming from another country and traveling up and down the Eastern seaboard, Southerners are particularly friendlier and hospitable than Northerners. In fact I see it everyday as I have settled down in South Carolina. VmanBG 19:05, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a problem with this article with the exception of the last paragraph.

Southern Ladies and Gentlemen also have good morality. They know the value of hardwork and the satisfaction that comes with it. They tend put others before themselves trying to help all and please everyone. Helping them, while also helping themselves.

It's a significant generalisation and not written in the same tone as the rest of the article. Since I don't live in the US, and therefore don't really have any idea of what the outside view of Southern morals and work ethic is, I'd prefer to leave someone else to edit this.

While the final statement about morality and hard work should be removed because it merely has nothing to do with hospitality, the article as a whole does well to generalize to someone not from the area what the idea is about. Southern hospitality does exist, is alive and well, and has no ties to slavery. The individual tendency of a person from the American South to be more outgoing and friendly towards a stranger as compared to other areas of the country (Especially major metro areas) is well established. It is a deeply rooted part of the southern culture to be hospitable and friendly. While every person in the South is not neccessarily friendly, the South as whole has/has had a reputation for hospitality. This article is not about someones opinion, but defines the term and explains the ideology.

Since the entire article is based on unsourced information and original research I'm going to give it a major rewriteReinoe (talk) 22:35, 4 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It strikes me as odd that all three of the sources in this article contain the name "Abbot". It could be coincidence but, strike me down, it seems odd

20% of the article is a quote from a decidedly anti-southern book. Written by a USC Cinematic Arts associate professor, the book in question examines tv shows and popular movies and concludes the representation of Southern Hospitality in them is fake. This doesn't fit the description of "sociologists and other social scientists", and is completely irrelevant to any actual study of human behaviors. As such I will delete this entry if no further discussion can offer a reason to keep it. Mullegun (talk) 06:47, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

needs rewrite

I agree this really needs a re-write. What marks Southern Hospitality as notable and different from other parts of the US? While a NPOV needs to be maintained it is also important to explain the cultural importance of certain customs.

Does anyone know of a southern etiquette guide that could be used as a viable source? I can dig up my old charm school books but southern hospitality might be more of a interpersonal thing than written.

My experience with Southern Hospitality is that of a central/north Texas variety amongst african-american and upper-middle class white groups so it will obviously not be the same as southern hospitality as that experienced in Georgia or Alabama.

Junkupshowup (talk) 06:43, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Will work on it

First off, I think we should dismiss any anecdotal evidence. Several people here mention the lack of hospitality or abundance depending on their personal experience. I, for one, have had many foreign friends come visit and immediately pick up on aspects of "Southern Hospitality" that they did not notice elsewhere. Also, as a Georgian (albeit, an ex-pat), I make it a point to extend hospitality and show courtesy and manners because that is what I was raised to do.

However, none of our personal experiences matter. This is an article about a widely held belief or extant phenomenon(depending on your view) that needs to have an article. As an example--When I went to graduate school in Europe, many of my European friends and acquaintances often asked me about the "Southern Hospitality" they've heard of--thus, it is a widely held and propagated idea that needs to be addressed.

SO, to get to the point. I experienced a lot of what the article talks about and can compare it to my experience living overseas and in several US cities. However, I will try to find studies or books that cover the subject. As far as cuisine, manners, and open-door hospitality, I will ping a few of my friends who are academics who research American History and Southern Culture as the university level. We need to avoid having people edit this based on their personal experience and I will work on finding professional sources.

For now, some general criticism: the introduction to the "critical examination" extrapolates things that are clearly not said in the book exert. For instance, no one I know says "Ma'am" or "Sir", starts up friendly conversations at random, invites people to dinner, or maintains proper decorum and manners because we are supposedly racist, trying to cover up our past of segregation, or living in poverty. This is hogwash and is clearly not said in the exert. If no one has any objections, I will eventually change the sentence to better reflect what the exert author said.

Input? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theboondocksaint (talk • contribs) 23:30, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV concerns

An editor placed an NPOV tag on the article, but did not provide an explanation on the talk page as to what about the article raised a concern for this editor. So far as I can tell, the article accurately relates a well-documented stereotype, examples thereof, and criticisms thereof. Of course, it could stand to be expanded, but this is not the same as saying that it has a bias that requires correction. bd2412 T 01:01, 21 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Original Research and Poor Sourcing = Rewrite Needed

Currently the article relies heavily on a primary source from the first half of the 19th century. This is WP:OR. We need secondary sources discussing the concept. I've tagged the article for a rewrite. :bloodofox: (talk) 10:40, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There is no rule against using old sources that describe a topic. Also, the 1835 source is a secondary source for the purpose of describing Southern hospitality. It is a travelogue by a professional writer from the North. bd2412 T 21:34, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV concerns again

@Zigzig20s: Would you care to qualify your addition of a POV tag to this article? Exactly what about it do you think is POV? bd2412 T 21:35, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The quote in the "Origins" section is good, but I still think we should add more context re: lynchings. The lede is particularly troubling. And even these days, I am not sure how "hospitable" the South is to the LGBTQ community, but is there an RS about this that we could add?Zigzig20s (talk) 21:59, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see the specific relevance of lynchings. Yes, they are anathema to hospitality, but so is slavery, which is more directly connected to it. With respect to LGBTQ issues, the first thing I came across was this Huffington Post blog, which I am guessing does not address your concern. bd2412 T 22:11, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, I am thinking of gay bashings, arbitrary dismissals, homelessness...on the grounds of "Christian values" (sic). The South is not very hospitable to the LGBTQ community. There may be RS in The Journal of Homosexuality--I am not sure.Zigzig20s (talk) 22:26, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Also classism...Does hospitality extend to poor whites?Zigzig20s (talk) 22:28, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to think negative examples are of secondary importance to an article on the topic. The first priority of the article should be identifying exactly what "southern hospitality" is (or is claimed to be) before moving to questions of whether it is observed inconsistently. bd2412 T 22:39, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think exclusion may be part of the definition.Zigzig20s (talk) 22:55, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Here's an op-ed by a Chinese writer recounting how he was extended this sort of hospitality when he first moved to Alabama, but that it has since been withdrawn in the prevailing anti-immigrant climate. Huang, Yunte (November 19, 2011). "Southern Hospitality, but Not for Newcomers". The New York Times. {{cite web}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help) bd2412 T 02:33, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We can't cite op eds.Zigzig20s (talk) 02:38, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Removed material

Some materials have been removed from this article which merit further discussion. They are as follows:

“

Southern hospitality has also been examined as a reflection of the deeply held religious beliefs of the region; the idea that one should be good to strangers is an outgrowth of such Biblical parables as the Good Samaritan. Indeed, Ernest Hamlin Abbott wrote in 1902, "as religious observances are in the South as naturally included in the hospitality of the home as anything else, so, conversely, hospitality in the South is an integral part of the church services".^[1]

”

This was removed as "Humorous WP:OR from a primary source dating from 1902". The source cited is neither humorous nor a primary source, as Ernest Hamlin Abbott is not the subject of the article. The second quote removed is:

“

Tradition and manners are repeatedly framed as the glue that binds the South together, distinguishing it from other regions. This is a familiar mantra, one linked to the "famous" southern hospitality capitalized on by many of the tourist attractions highlighted earlier in the book. Contemporary fascinations with the "grandeur" of the Old South depend on a certain sense of decorum, and this genteel mise-en-scene of southernness is constructed via a carefully manipulated stage set of moonlight, magnolias, and manners. White southerners frequently stress the importance of keeping up appearances; for example, in her Womenfolks: Growing Up Down South, popular writer Shirley Abbot describes the "natural theatricality" inherent in southern hospitality. It requires "a talent for taking on a special role in a comedy of manners that will apparently run forever, no matter how transparent its characters and aims" (106). This maintenance of an aura of tranquility despite a certain degree of transparency suggests that southern hospitality is a performance, a masquerade, an agreed-on social fiction, albeit a powerful one with material effects.^[2]

”

This was removed as "undue weight, not a social scientist or sociologist or any kind of expert as described in the preceding sentence". I see no explanation as to why this is "undue". If the problem is that the author is not the kind of expert described in the preceding sentence, then the solution would be to fix the preceding sentence to encompass the author. bd2412 T 12:58, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The first passage could be restored. The second passage probably needs more in-line references.Zigzig20s (talk) 18:36, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Abbott, Ernest Hamlin (1902). Religious Life in America: A Record of Personal Observation. Outlook Company. p. 111.
^ Tara McPherson, Reconstructing Dixie: Race, Gender, and Nostalgia in the Imagined South (2003), p. 150.

Issue with long quotations

The layout looks a bit odd with these long quotations. Is there not a way to rephrase the article with in-line references instead please?Zigzig20s (talk) 18:39, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I am more concerned with building the content first, and then working on the presentation. bd2412 T 19:02, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]