User talk:Nhtpaf

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Your submission at Articles for creation: Treaty of Cuba (May 23)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Endrabcwizart was:

This draft's references do not show that the subject qualifies for a Wikipedia article. In summary, the draft needs multiple published sources that are:

in-depth (not just passing mentions about the subject)
reliable
secondary
independent of the subject

Make sure you add references that meet these criteria before resubmitting. Learn about mistakes to avoid when addressing this issue. If no additional references exist, the subject is not suitable for Wikipedia.

Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.

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Endrabcwizart (talk) 04:18, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Nhtpaf! Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the Articles for creation help desk. If you have any other questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the Teahouse, a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! Endrabcwizart (talk) 04:18, 23 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Undid some but not all of your changes to Bombardment of Greytown

Hello, Nhtpaf

I changed Grey Town back to Greytown because the two word name is rarely used, and the title of the piece has Greytown as one word.

I also added back a sentence deleted at the beginning that said: “It was formerly a Nicaraguan port and then part of the United Kingdom’s Mosquito Indian Protectorate, with which it still had close ties.” I felt this was crucial to the narrative. Perhaps you could explain your thinking as to why you removed it.

I kept the change under ”place” where Nicaragua was changed to Kingdom of Mosquitia. And I added the name Miskito to the description of the Indians preparing the tortoise shell for export.

I tried to leave a long note like this in the edit summary box, explaining why I undid some of your changes but not others. It would not let me add to the summary that was already there, saying I had undone your changes. I went back a second time when that box was cleared and tried to put this in again but it would not take all of it.

I hope in the future we can exchange thoughts this way on your talk page or mine before we make any more changes in this regard.

Thank you. Will-DubDub (talk) 05:10, 9 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Will-DubDub,

Thanks for your message and for explaining your reasoning behind the edits. I appreciate your efforts to maintain historical clarity and context in the article.

Regarding the sentence stating that Grey Town was “formerly a Nicaraguan port,” I removed this phrase based on concerns about historical accuracy. Several 19th-century legal and diplomatic sources, including Costa Rica’s 1887 Reply to the Argument of Nicaragua submitted in the arbitration before the US President, present strong evidence that Nicaragua did not historically exercise jurisdiction over the Atlantic coast — including the area around the mouth of the San Juan River where Grey Town is located.

For example:

“There is not a single commission, a single royal ordinance, extending the jurisdiction of Nicaragua, during the XVIth century, to the coast of the Atlantic Ocean.” (p. 14)

And:

“It is known that the Nicaraguan limit, on the east of the Lake, was within fifteen leagues of the latter, and did not comprise the Mosquito coast or the mouths of the Desaguadero.” (p. 21)

Because the article currently does not cite sources asserting Greytown was part of Nicaragua prior to the 19th century — and substantial historical evidence suggests otherwise — it seemed more accurate to omit that claim.

List of excerpts from ‘Reply to the argument of Nicaragua’; filed on behalf of the Government of Costa Rica by Pedro Pérez Zeledón; 1887.

“There is not a single commission, a single royal ordinance, extending the jurisdiction of Nicaragua, during the XVIth century, to the coast of the Atlantic Ocean” p. 14

“A historical error is committed by saying that Columbus discovered Nicaragua in 1502 when he travelled along the coast from Cape Gracias a Dios to Cariay or to the San Juan river. In doing this he did not reach Nicaragua, nor New Granada either, but he only went along the coast of [Moskitia].” p. 14

“The demonstration of this truth is simple. Twenty years before the discovery of Nicaragua those coasts were known by the name of Veragua, from Cape Camaron to the Gulf of Darien or Uraba.” p. 14

“It is known that the Nicaraguan limit, on the east of the Lake, was within fifteen leagues of the latter, and did not comprise the Mosquito coast or the mouths of the Desaguadero” p. 21

“The proof that none of the three mouths of the Desaguadero belonged to Nicaragua is furnished by the Royal Ordinance of Philip II of February 10, 1576, directing the Andiencia of Guatemala to enter into an agreement with Captain Diego Lopez to conquer and people the Province of Taguzgalpa, that is to say, the part of the old Government of Cartago which was not included within the limits given to Artieda. The Audiencia entrusted Licentiate Diego Garcia de Palacio, one of its justices to enter into an agreement in the name of His Majesty with Diego Lopez.

“Article 1st of that agreement reads as follows: "Firstly. His Majesty will appoint him his Governor and Captain-General for the said Province, which is all the land included between the mouth of the Desaguadero and the Camaron Point on the northern side, where the Province of Honduras begins; and from there towards the interior, the whole territory ending at what is now the limit of the jurisdiction of the Province of Nicaragua and Nueva Segovia, and also of Honduras." p. 27

“From the documents and facts above alluded to it appears to be evident that in 1576 the Province of Nicaragua did not exercise any jurisdictional rights over the mouths of the Desaguadero, or over the coasts on the Atlantic side; … Nicaragua never established any colony on the southern bank of the San Juan river which was never occupied by her. On the northern bank she founded Jaen, on the outlet of the Lake, at the place where Fort San Carlos now stands.” p. 27

That said, I agree the sentence’s role in situating Grey Town within the Mosquito Protectorate is important. A revised version might read:

“Located at the mouth of the San Juan River, Grey Town formed part of the Kingdom of Mosquitia, a former British protectorate.

Happy to discuss further — and I appreciate your collaborative approach.

Best, Nhtpaf

----

Nhtpaf (talk) 12:12, 9 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Nhtpaf,

Your research on the 16th century history of San Juan de Nicaragua and the Atlantic coast of Central America was very impressive. But I don’t see how it is germane to what happened in the 19th century, especially when you state yourself that my article “does not cite sources asserting Greytown was part of Nicaragua prior to the 19th century,” implying it was part of Nicaragua during the 19th century.

I think it’s only relevant to the article that Nicaragua gained control of Greytown by the 19th century. In 1841, for instance, according to historian John Bigelow, an English force from Belize landed at San Juan del Norte, carried off the Nicaraguan port commandant, and “abandoned him on an uninhabited coast.” The object “was to assert the majesty of the Indian King as sovereign over the Mosquito Coast, including the mouths of the San Juan.” The Nicaraguans later ousted the Mosquito forces, but the English seized San Juan del Norte again in 1848, then renaming the port as Greytown. See: John Bigelow, Breaches of Anglo-American Treaties: A Study in History and Diplomacy (New York: Sturgis & Walton Company, 1917), 51, https://hdl.handle.net/2027/hvd.hx4h21?urlappend=%3Bseq=63%3Bownerid=27021597768403678-71.

Also, when you omitted “that claim” (that asserted Greytown was part of Nicaragua), you also omitted the end of the sentence, “with which it still had close ties.” Given that you acknowledge that “situating Grey Town within the Mosquito Protectorate is important,” I’m surprised you would excise that “close ties” passage, too.

I thought about using part of your revision suggestion that reads: “Located at the mouth of the San Juan River, Grey Town formed part of the Kingdom of Mosquitia, a former British protectorate.” But “United Kingdom’s Mosquito Indian Protectorate” is more of its official name, although Kingdom of Mosquitia is used interchangeably a lot. (Also, using the official name, would help the reader, early on, understand much better what it was.) And finally it was not a “former” British protectorate at the time.

It was nice exchanging these thoughtful comments with you. Good luck with your Wikipedia projects in the future!

Best, Will-DubDub Will-DubDub (talk) 22:32, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Mosquito Coast

Hello Nhtpaf. Please be aware that the topic of the Mosquito Coast has been disputed in the past. If you find that any of your changes are contested by others, use the normal steps of WP:Dispute resolution to reach agreement. If you have previously used a Wikipedia account that is now blocked, you are expected to go through the proper steps to be reinstated. Let me know if you have any questions. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 19:39, 9 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]