Talk:Antifa (United States)

RFC: Should "far-left" be added to the lead?

Should this article have "left-wing" changed to "left wing to far-left" in the first sentence of the lead, as in this edit? --Aquillion (talk) 14:58, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Survey

• No. The second sentence's Individuals involved in the movement tend to hold anti-authoritarian and anti-capitalist views, subscribing to a range of left-wing ideologies such as anarchism, communism, Marxism, social democracy and socialism is more accurate. If we must cover left-right politics in the lead, the preponderance of sources describe Antifa's politics as broad and ambiguous in a way that is better summarized as just left-wing. --Aquillion (talk) 14:58, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

  So, how would you account for a non-violent Republican who is profoundly Anti-Facist? This article is fundamentally flawed with blanket statements that assert, for example, that Antifa persons are anarchists. Nothing could be further from the truth. I wholeheartedly support the Constitution of the United States of America and just wish that SOMEBODY who has taken an oath to protect and defend it would put on their thinking cap, muster some bravery, and put country above re-election. 67.216.244.47 (talk) 22:56, 7 February 2025 (UTC)

  Sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about or how it relates to this article. . O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:17, 8 February 2025 (UTC)

• No . The opening section presents the article's subject accurately, i.e. per sources, and, moreover, is well and carefully written. -The Gnome (talk) 17:37, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Changing my suggestion to Yes, and I declare my sincere apologies to all concerned for my previous, inexcusably hasty one. Sources quoted herebelow, along with additional ones found (e.g. on BBC, in Forbes, in PBS, or even amongst the original antifascists, in Germany), strongly support the change to far-left. -The Gnome (talk) 10:19, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

BBC says Antifa, short for "anti-fascist", is a loose affiliation of 'mostly far-left activists.

Forbes says antifa isn't far left: what exactly is the difference between Antifa and the far, or radical, left? Well, like everything in America right now, it depends on who you ask. Officials like Trump and Barr are using the terms interchangeably, blurring the lines between the two. By doing so, administration officials are attempting to inject volatile language into an already combustible situation... in President Trump’s mind, and the minds of his supporters, the radical left and far left are interchangeable terms for Trump’s political adversaries. Using this term has been a tried-and-true tactic of the President since his election in 2016, and as a result, the terms have become divorced from their more classical political meaning – which includes political views that fall outside of mainstream democratic and liberal perspectives. By increasingly painting all Democratic views as “radical left,” President Trump has negated the real meaning the words. Which is why the interchangeable use of the terms Antifa and radical left is so troubling.

PBS says "far-left-leaning" not "far left".

DW is about German antifa, a different topic (and note it says protests might attract sympathetic participants who wouldn't necessarily define themselves as anarchist, or indeed as far-left. Often German antifa groups enjoy their best turnouts when organizing counter-protests against far-right demonstrators. These events can draw in people from almost all walks of life.) BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:11, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

• Well the BBC one indicates to me there's definitely an argument for inclusion. If it's "mostly" far-left, why would we not say "far-left" or "left-wing to far-left"? It would be WP:UNDUE to not call them far-left here.

As for PBS, I think it's pretty safe to say "far-left-leaning" means the same as "far-left". — Czello ^(music) 15:16, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

• Read back the examples I provided.

Forbes states the following, with emphasis added: "Antifa a loose group of radical activists...dressed in all black and wearing black face masks (so called black bloc tactics)...known to use violent tactics...[their] protests include taking part in violent anti-capitalist marches." Try as much as you want, the cumulative assessment of such a group cannot by any means be termed simply "left." A simply left organization is not radical and does not engage in violence. End of story.

PBS: "Antifa is an umbrella term for far-left-leaning movements." When each and every movement is far-leaning then the umbrella organization can be termed "far left" without any loss of accuracy.

For the German case, note that Antifa deploys the same tactics everywhere in the US and Europe, per sources. They are all beyond the spectrum of simply the left. So, the German Antifa is a useful indicator, especially when the report comes from an anti-fascist medium such as Deutsche Welle.

As to the BBC, it sometimes, in a rather British way, will hedge its bets with "rather's" and "mostly's" but, more often than not, its journalistic integrity surfaces: "far-left", "far-left", "far-left".

You are on a false path and I should not be the one to break these news to you. -The Gnome (talk) 20:40, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry but the underlined words in your Forbes quote don't equal "far" and it's WP:OR to say they do. Forbes says antifa are "radical activists" but also explicitly that antifa are not "radical left".

Re PBS and BBC, call me old-fashioned or British but I think journalists use words for reasons and if they qualify with the extra letters of "leaning" or "mostly" they're avoiding making an excessive claim and so should we.

You've now added three more BBC links. The first one doesn't call antifa "far left"; it says a loose confederation of anti-fascists - or antifa, for short. There is no one antifa organisation or political philosophy. They're a mixed bag of anarchists, socialists and communists. Some conservatives might see all socialists as far left, but Wikipedia doesn't. However, the last two BBC links do call it a loosely affiliated group of far-left protesters so I agree that the BBC do sometimes use this phrase, while on other occasions (here's another) they qualify this.

Re DW, the idea that because a reliable source says something about people in one country their words can be applied to a wholly different country is not a good way of using sources. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:33, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

@The Gnome: the BBC article linked uses "left-wing" and "far left" interchangeably. It is a justification against the proposed change, not for it. VQuakr (talk) 23:47, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

• No. Seems needlessly wordy to me, as "left-wing" already implies inclusion of "far-left", more than it does "center-left", for instance. FelipeFritschF (talk) 18:38, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Three additional letters to a word make for a "wordy" situation? I do not think that is a correct assessment. -The Gnome (talk)

This is an odd reason to oppose, if you ask me. "Left-wing" doesn't already imply inclusion of "far-left", any more than "right-wing" implies inclusion of "far-right". On top of that, there are plenty of existing articles that have a range ("x to y") in their infobox, such as Conservative Party (UK). It's not wordy at all. — Czello ^(music) 14:51, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Wordiness is not simply measured by word count. Even one or two words can make a sentence considerably more convoluted and ruin the natural flow of the sentence, and the choice of words matters too; there may be a set of two words that, when added to a sentence, make it seem as wordy as if you were to add a different set of twenty words. Further, adding words to an already long sentence is generally worse than adding them to a shorter one. These reasons, among others, are why although there are many infoboxes on Wikipedia that contain an "X-to-Y" ideological description, few (none that I am aware of, actually) go for such wording in the lead. Brusquedandelion (talk) 04:28, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

• No There is no reason Wikipedia editors to add their opinions to the article. TFD (talk) 19:13, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

  That's evidently not happening given the abundance of sources. — Czello ^(music) 10:27, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

• No We've been down this road multiple times, see the FAQ and Archives. The discussion over the last month did not result in a consensus for the change, there's not enough reliable sources to overcome WP:DUE and include such nomenclature in the lede and infobox. Arguments that it stayed in the article too long are invalid, because the entire point was to not get into an edit war during the discussion. Once that was resolved and it was removed, suddenly people began claiming the addition was the "stable version," and edit warring to keep it in. This is not policy compliant, and we need to put this to rest. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:46, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
• No. While some sources say this, they are far from the best sources and a majority don’t say this, and some directly contradict it. Nothing has changed since the last RfC (in fact, newer, stronger sources tend to be less likely to say “far left”). BobFromBrockley (talk) 22:22, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Some sources contesting or contradicting use of far left:

Antifa – short for "anti-fascist" – is the name for loosely affiliated, left-leaning, anti-racist groups that monitor and track the activities of local neo-Nazis.--USA Today, 2017 antifa, a loose movement of left-wing, anti-racist and anti-fascist activists.--The Conversation, 2021 Antifa’s organisation (or lack thereof) is reminiscent of Anonymous: there is no hierarchy or central platform, and anyone can claim the title and set up a local branch. The decentralised character of Antifa and lack of theoretical basis ensure appeal to all “anti-fascists”, but also make it difficult to pin down what exactly it is they oppose.--The Economist, 2017, i.e. no specific ideological position Trump’s rise has also bred a new sympathy for antifa among some on the mainstream left. “Suddenly,” noted the antifa-aligned journal It’s Going Down, “anarchists and antifa, who have been demonized and sidelined by the wider Left have been hearing from liberals and Leftists, ‘you’ve been right all along.’ ”... [Their] tactics have elicited substantial support from the mainstream left. --Beinart, 2017 Anti-fascist organizing has long existed outside of mainstream leftwing organizing in the United States. But as the far right has gained stature and attention amid the rise of Trump, anti-fascism has gained relevance... Shane Burley, a journalist and researcher who studies the far right, said that anti-fascists struggled to be “taken seriously” by other leftists in recent years, as mainstream groups took aim at “systemic racism” rather than specific racist groups. But with the rise in “violent, casual racism” after the election, anti-fascism tactics will gain in popularity, he said.--Guardian, 2017 i.e. appealed beyond far left to mainstream left Antifa, short for anti-fascists, is not a concrete group, rather an amorphous movement. Anti-fascists of the movement tend to be grouped on the leftward fringes of the US political spectrum, many describing themselves as socialists, anarchists, communists or anti-capitalists.--Al-Jazeera, 2020 according to the Anti-Defamation League... “Most antifa come from the anarchist movement or from the far left, though since the 2016 presidential election, some people with more mainstream political backgrounds have also joined their ranks.”--NYT, 2021 The U.S. antifa movement appears to be decentralized, consisting of independent, radical, like-minded groups and individuals. Its tenets can echo the principles of anarchism, socialism, and communism. Members do not necessarily adhere to just the tenants of these philosophies, however... Contemporary U.S. antifa adherents likely do not share a list of enemies, as the movement lacks a unifying organizational structure or detailed ideology that might shape such a list., --Congressional Research Service, 2020 no mention of "left" Antifa, short for "anti-fascist", is a loose affiliation of 'mostly far-left activists. -- BBC, 2020 in President Trump’s mind, and the minds of his supporters, the radical left and far left are interchangeable terms for Trump’s political adversaries. Using this term has been a tried-and-true tactic of the President since his election in 2016, and as a result, the terms have become divorced from their more classical political meaning – which includes political views that fall outside of mainstream democratic and liberal perspectives. By increasingly painting all Democratic views as “radical left,” President Trump has negated the real meaning the words. Which is why the interchangeable use of the terms Antifa and radical left is so troubling.--Forbes, 2020 i.e. conflation with "far left" is in Trump's imagination The mainstream media is eager to label this a natural continuum, but the reality of the antifa is far more complex. Months of interviewing self-proclaimed members of the antifa uncovered a loosely organized tribe of individuals whose philosophies and tactics run the gamut from literally singing “Kumbaya” at rallies to hunting down Nazis to break their bones — and who recently have been united in part by a modicum of mainstream acceptance.--Alta, 2018 no mention of left, stresses heterogeneity Antifa, short for "anti-fascist", is a loose affiliation of mostly far-left activists. They include anarchists, but also communists and a few social democrats.--BBC, 2020 the usually loosely organized groups of left-wing protesters in Portland, Ore., and other U.S. cities that have adopted the name antifa — which the FBI indicates is nowhere as great a terrorist threat as right-wing groups — position themselves as outside the moderate liberal mainstream. For both the right and the left, antifa connotes an uncompromising radicalism. However, a look at the historical roots of the antifa movement reveal much more prevalent strands of pragmatism, compromise and coalition-building. In some cases, the movement also reflected a surprising embrace of moderation and reconciliation.--Washington Post, 2020, i.e. moderate not extreme Antifa has become a conservative catch-all under President Donald Trump.... Yet antifa doesn’t appear to have any organizing structure and is connected only by an amorphous political ideology. Still, the term is a potent one for conservatives. It’s the violent distillation of everything they fear could come to pass in an all-out culture war. And it’s a quick way to brand part of the opposition... “Antifa just became a term used by anyone and their grandma to describe somebody who was opposed to the open fascism that was being paraded around in all kinds of media,” said Alexander Reid Ross, an instructor at Portland State University and the author of “Against the Fascist Creep.” “I think with the popularization of the alt-right, there was sort of a counterpopularization of antifa, to the point where it simply describes people who are anti-fascist or people who are against racism and are willing to protest against it.”--Politico, 2020 i.e. conflation with "far left" is in Trump's imagination/increasingly taken on by people not from the radical left Ever since the term Antifa came into common use in 2017, the American far-right, aided by pundits in conservative media, has seized upon it, casting it wherever there is civil disobedience or anarchy. Crowds that turned angry, from Black Lives Matter protesters to environmental activists to student protesters, have been labeled Antifa by conservative commentators. It’s a political tactic, said Mark Bray... The image of Antifa as radical anarchists bent on political violence became a rallying cry for the far-right.--USA Today, 2021 i.e. conflation with "far left" is in Trump's imagination.

Adding couple of conclusions from these sources: (a) as our current article already makes clear, antifa is heterogeneous, a loose affiliation, not amendable to overky specific ideologival labels, (b) as a single issue canoaign it does not weigh in on issues rrlevant to distinctions within the left, (c) it has been subject to misunderstanding, misreporting, moral panics, hoaxes and disinformation, and much of this has focused on attempts to demonise the left, so labelling far left would play into this, (d) as it grew more popular after 2017, it increasingly became a label taken on by anti-fascists outside the radical left and anarchist milieux. Additionally a point not made in these sources but thats been playing on my mind: it is often linked to anarchism which some editors (in a form of SYNTH) seem to think is evidence for "far left", when in fact anarchism has an ambivalent relationship to the left, with many anarchists seeing themselves as outside it

BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:12, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

• Yes Numerous reliable sources including peer-review academic journals have used the label. ([1], [2], [3])

Reliable Sources that use the label of Far-left:
1.) CNN [4] 2.) Reuthers[5] 3.) New York Times [6] 4.) ABC [7] 5.) CBC [8]

Finally I think the issue of weight should be noted what is being asked that "left-wing" be changed to "Left-wing to far-left". This is not some unreasonable change that completely changes the page. If anything it is a fair compromise between people who want "left wing" and those who say "far-left".3Kingdoms (talk) 00:54, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

You say Numerous reliable sources including peer-review academic journals have used the label.

The first source cited is paywalled and the title, abstract and references imply it's not a piece about contemporary US antifa. Can you give the quote? Is it more than a passing mention?

Am I correct that the third source cited doesn't call antifa a far left movement? (The only use of far left I can see is "network analyses of far-right and far-left hashtags (i.e., #bluehand, #whitegenocide, and #antifa)".) BobFromBrockley (talk) 09:43, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

If you go to the bottom of the "Should Antifa be marked as far-left" you can find the sources and where the mention of far-left is made. From the first source [...] Antifa, a far-left anti-fascist movement. [...] The American Far Left includes 'groups or individuals that embrace anticapitalist, Communist, or Socialist doctrines and [seek] to bring about change through violent revolution' (Department of Homeland Security 2009, p. 6). The third source implicitly calls the movement as far-left by describing the hastag #antifa as far left.

Regarding one of the sources you put out number 9 says its mostly made up of far leftists. Second none of them really apply here since no one is saying that the "left-wing" part be removed, only that "far-left" be added. 3Kingdoms (talk) 02:38, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

We don't care about what you think is implicit in a statement. Only what is explicitly stated.Simonm223 (talk) 16:14, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

It explicitly labels #antifa as far left.  3Kingdoms (talk) 16:37, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

@3Kingdoms Can you link to the DHS statement please? Thanks. Doug Weller talk 10:42, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I unfortunately do not have access to the document itself to give the exact location, but here is the source that cites the DHS report. [https://link.springer.com/referenceworkentry/10.1007/978-3-319-69891-5_250-1]. I hope that helps. Cheers. 3Kingdoms (talk) 15:29, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

@3Kingdoms I don't have access to that, what does it actually say? I ask because I have never been able to find this actual statement anywhere. Doug Weller talk 15:52, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

From what I can see of the source it says "[...] Antifa, a far-left anti-fascist movement. [...] The American Far Left includes 'groups or individuals that embrace anticapitalist, Communist, or Socialist doctrines and [seek] to bring about change through violent revolution' (Department of Homeland Security 2009, p. 6)." This is all I have access to. My apologies. 3Kingdoms (talk) 17:22, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm a bit concerned both about the ellipses in the middle of this quote and that it's being presented, a quote direct from a primary source, citing to a secondary source but containing nothing of the secondary source beyond that they quoted the primary source.

Also that source, while on the website of a journal publisher, is a living reference work rather than a paper, analysis, meta-analysis, etc. As such it's basically just a bibliography. Which brings us back to WP:PRIMARY and thus a serious WP:DUE consideration. Simonm223 (talk) 17:29, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Which is why I am saying I have never found a Federal document. What exists is a New Jersey State report which doesn't call them terrorist. I am struggling with my internet, back tomorrow. Doug Weller talk 17:49, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I will be online later but only on my iPad. Doug Weller talk 17:50, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

If a bunch of people wanted to label antifa a far right group, would we "compromise" by calling them a "far left to far right group", in spite of how inane and unhelpful such verbiage is? Brusquedandelion (talk) 04:45, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Your point does not make sense and is a strawman. Numerous reliable and academic sources have been presented to show the far-left label being applied to Antifa. There is nothing inane or unhelpful about calling antifa "left-wing to far-left". It captures the divergent groups within the movement. 3Kingdoms (talk) 19:51, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

• Yes — it's sourced, it's not an unreasonable request and it is DUE. While antifa's political leanings are often described as "far-left" — [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23]. [24], [25]. The Center for Strategic and International Studies describes "antifa" as a "decentralized network of far-left militants who oppose what they believe are fascist, racist, or otherwise right-wing extremists" and whose adherents "frequently blend anarchist and communist views". Democratic lawmakers across the board (including Joe Biden) have denounced the far-left anarchist group Antifa. Antifa is a useful umbrella term that denotes a broad spectrum of groups and individuals of far-left or anarchist tendencies. The term itself means simply anti-fascist. Isaidnoway (talk) 04:51, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

  Why would the denunciations of a centrist politician, doubtless motivated by the realities of political intrigue, have any relevance here? Kamala Harris has called Trump a Fascist; may I edit Donald Trump to refer to him as a Fascist in WP:WIKIVOICE and cite that as a source? Brusquedandelion (talk) 04:43, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

  The article linked is calling antifa "far-left" not Biden. 3Kingdoms (talk) 19:54, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

• Yes per Isaidnoway and 3Kingdoms. There is an abundance of sourcing here and I find the "no" arguments to be unconvincing. Some of the no arguments imply that it's already covered by other descriptors (then why not include the political position that reflects them?), others say that it's not the majority of sources (fine, which is why we're saying "left-wing to far-left" rather than just "far-left"), others say that it's personal opinion, which is evidently untrue given the sources. — Czello ^(music) 10:26, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
• Yes — Per reasons above. Sources overwhelmingly support it. The overall arguement against inclusion of "far-left" seems to be something like: "I don't think that it's a primary focus of coverage and therefore isn't really leadworthy".
  However, a mere cursory glance at sources explicitly says otherwise. If one simply googles the term "antifa," the resulting output gives 7 usable sources [26] (10 originally. 3 are not helpful, such as this own wiki page or Amazon shop links). Of those 7 reliable sources, 5 of them associate antifa with the far-left. I don't know how anyone could possibly maintain that it's not "a primary focus of coverage" when the majority of the most prominent reliable sources to the public clearly say otherwise. --Just10A (talk) 14:08, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think top Google hits is the best measure of WP:BESTSOURCES. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:31, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

• I didn't say it was. But it's certainly a decent metric for determining which articles are getting the "primary focus of coverage". Most of those sources were already cited by others and are reliable either way. Just10A (talk) 14:35, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
• We do not use Google to number and compare hits but to find and identify sources. And the Google-found sources mostly and clearly have "far-left" in the their appellation. -The Gnome (talk) 14:41, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

• No per Aquillion, FelipeFritschF, TFD, The Hand That Feeds You, BobFromBrockley. Needlessly wordy and very awkward phrasing. Gamaliel (talk) 15:16, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
• No - Per above. This needs too much context and nuance to fit in the lead as a bland fact. The goal of the article should be to provide context, not to nudge and hint towards ideological conclusions based on cherry-picked and misrepresented sources. Grayfell (talk) 02:12, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  What do you believe is the "Cherry-picked" or "misrepresented" sources? Because for me most of the sources in support of the label simply say some version of "Antifa is a far-left group". 3Kingdoms (talk) 02:45, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

• These aren't "ideological conclusions", they're labels used directly by the sources. I don't see what additional context or nuance they require to fit into the lead, any more than any other article with similar labelling. — Czello ^(music) 07:03, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

It is a mistake to expect everything with "similar labeling" to be treated exactly the same regardless of context. Among other issues with this approach -many other issues- far-left politics "does not have a single, coherent definition". It is impossible to talk about something being labelled as far-left without discussing its ideology, but even with that in mind, this is a misleading way to do that. The use of this term, in this context, would cause confusion and would imply different things to different editors based on their prior assumptions and biases. This is a bad thing for an encyclopedia article to do. Grayfell (talk) 19:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

So are there no instances where “far left” is appropriate because of its imprecise definition then? Wouldn’t that standard equally apply to “far-right” or many other ideology names? Surely this can’t be the standard.

If Reliable sources use it then reliable sources use it. (and they do) That should be the primary base of our analysis. Just10A (talk) 19:52, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

• No per User:Gamaliel and the list of editors he includes. Doug Weller talk 07:19, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
• No. As shown in the FAQ, this has been discussed to death already & reading over the current discussion so far, this will continue to be a waste of editor's time. Regardless however, the phrase "left wing to far-left" is pointless when describing a non-centralized movement. Some individuals who consider themselves part of the movement may be considered far-left, but unless the content of the movement as a whole is in some way, inherently "far-left", the umbrella term of left wing (which far-left is a part of) is perfectly descriptive already. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 17:15, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
• No. The additional words seem to be a novel term that doesn't convey any additional information beyond the existing version. VQuakr (talk) 21:21, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
• Yes any source I pick up either explicitly states they are, or engage in behaviors that are, far-left. None of the sources contradict the premise of Antifa being far left. It's always the same 4 editors having a bone to pick on this talk page coming up with purity tests for edits. HoadRog (talk) 23:10, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

  HoadRog, did you see the list of sources I've posted above which contradict the premise? (I think using a contentious label like far left for a group that an editor believes to "engage in behaviours that are far-left" is original research. In fact, a tiny minority of the sources cited in the article now use the words "far left".) BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:07, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not interested in engaging in pedantries. This is the most curated and biased article on Wikipedia I have ever seen. HoadRog (talk) 08:16, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

  If reading and interpreting the WP:RELIABLESOURCES and engaging in the WP:CONSENSUS-building process is "pedantry" to you, is it possible you are WP:NOTHERE to build a better encyclopedia? Brusquedandelion (talk) 04:38, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

• No for the lead, however I would support such verbiage in the infobox. There is ample precedent for doing it this way. The problem with using "X-to-Y" ideological descriptors is that they are simultaneously wordy without explaining very much. As others have pointed out, the lead is a great place to write, in longer sentences, actual descriptions of their ideology and praxis. In fact, the article already does this, and adding an "X-to-Y" description is not actually providing any further description, just hampering the flow of the sentence. The correct place for such short, sweeping phrases is the infobox. And again, there is ample precedent for this; very few articles use the bloated terminology being proposed here in the running text of the lead, but they do use it commonly in infoboxes. Brusquedandelion (talk) 04:37, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
• No. Antifa, meaning anti-fascist, is too broad a movement to characterize it as 'far left,' or in some contexts even 'left wing.' It's true that most people in antifa fall into anarchist, communist, or socialist categories, but not strictly true. There are groups that are explicitly anti-fascist that are not necessarily leftist. The U.S. Democratic party, for example, or the Green party, could be considered to fall under the antifa umbrella because they are anti-fascist, but they are definitely not socialist or communist.Coalcity58 (talk) 00:04, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Coalcity58 If far left and left wing are not good descriptions, what would you use? PackMecEng (talk) 00:50, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  I think I would avoid either label altogether and maybe just rewrite the definition of 'antifa' to say something to the effect that it's a 'broad' or 'diverse,' diffusely organized, or not formally organized, association of groups holding antifascist views. Coalcity58 (talk) 21:10, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

• No. The defining characteristic is not leftism but opposition to fascism. Plenty of conservatives are also opposed to fascism. Captainllama (talk) 12:19, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• Yes strong Yes. Case in point: They already have "far-right" in the lead paragraph for Matt Gaetz.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:580:4580:9f30:c147:966e:51e8:2377 (talk) 16:18, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

  Matt Gaetz is called "far right" because that's what the sources say, it has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion here. Captainllama (talk) 15:24, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

  um I respectfully disagree because "reliable" sources also say Antifa is far-left (see above) . so the fact wikipedia already calls Gaetz Far-Right (even though most sources do not say that) proves Antifa should have Far-Left in the lead. Period. IMO 170.55.61.26 (talk) 23:50, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

  Nothing about another article "proves" anything about this article. Gaetz is one person. He is what he is. Antifa is an umbrella term for many folks of many stripes. I'd guess there are more libertarians than far-Left under than umbrella. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:49, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

• No the preponderance of sources do not indicate that anti-fascism is far-left. It is, rather a coalition of far-left, left, center-left and liberal people who have come to the solution that fascism must be actively opposed. What it comes down to is that basically nobody likes fascists and the composition of antifascist groups demonstrates this. Simonm223 (talk) 17:58, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

  Antifa ≠ anti-fascism. 3Kingdoms (talk) 16:40, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

  You are wrong. Simonm223 (talk) 22:10, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

  Antifa is a loose organization of individuals that have several shared beliefs, anti-fascism is an ideal. So seems like they are correct. PackMecEng (talk) 23:17, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

  As PackMecEng says Anti-fascism is an ideology/ political criticism while Antifa is a movement/organization. Anti-fascism predates the earliest use of "Antifa". Anti-communism ≠ The World Anticommunist League. 3Kingdoms (talk) 15:34, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

  Since we're doing the "most technically correct parsing" game please note I said "antifascist groups". If "antifa" is a "loose collection of groups," or a "movement" the term "antifascist groups" covers such groups. What I cannot countenance is the fringe POV that suggests that antifa (an abbreviation for antifascism) is somehow distinct from antifascism and that antifa groups should not be described as antifascists. Simonm223 (talk) 15:00, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

  You are right. OberleutnantMarton (talk) 14:56, 4 February 2025 (UTC)

• Yes Per User:Czello and the people mentioned by him/her. Long overdue change, plenty of reliable sources have been cited here to at least warrant a mention of them being far-left. In addition, on a purely semantic perspective I fail to see who CAN be called far-left if Antifa cannot - though I realise it is not a sufficient reason to make the change. What should be sufficient is that none of the arguments by the "Noes" seem convincing (mostly either ignoring the sources cited, or making an original claim that antifa is either not far-left or not even defined by it being left-wing), and the consensus in the sources seems very clear. OberleutnantMarton (talk) 15:06, 4 February 2025 (UTC)
• No - To label it as such with so many disagreeing RS suggests that members be painted with the same brush. Yet this is a highly disorganized set of mostly anonymous folks with likely many different views. Mostly libertarian or anarchist, the first a view claimed by more on the 'right' and neither leftist as both far-right and far-left authoritarian. These are not authoritarian believers. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:24, 8 February 2025 (UTC)

Discussion

• The previous RFC on this topic is here; see also the links in the header and the discussions above for recent disputes over it. --Aquillion (talk) 15:00, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

• I find the most recent proposed phrasing of "left-wing to far-left" particularly obnoxious for editorial reasons. Do any reliable sources use that phrasing or is that a Wikipedia invention. VQuakr (talk) 03:16, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

It appears mostly as a wiki tool when something is called by different sources “X wing” or “far X”. An example of this would be the Right sector article. 3Kingdoms (talk) 04:33, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

That language is just the result of the WP:CONSENSUS policy of seeking a compromise. If anything, it's actually too generous. It's worth noting that most of the reliable sources listed so far exclusively call ANTIFA far-left. Not "ranges from left to the far left." The proposed "left-wing to far-left" lead language is just there to reflect that there is some range in the descriptions. Just10A (talk) 14:28, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

@Just10A: can you link the discussion that resulted in consensus for that phrasing? VQuakr (talk) 17:27, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I think you misinterpreted what I said. I meant that WP:CONSENSUS calls us to compromise: A consensus decision into account all of the proper concerns raised. Ideally, it arrives with an absence of objections, but often we must settle for as wide an agreement as can be reached. When there is no wide agreement, consensus-building involves adapting the proposal to bring in dissenters without losing those who accepted the initial proposal There are an abundance of editors and sources for both positions, and that proposed language reflects that range as required by policy. I was explaining why the proposed language is worded the way it is, not that it's already been settled. Just10A (talk) 18:05, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Compromise does not mean WP:FALSEBALANCE. We do not have to bend over to include "both sides" to adhere to consensus. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:28, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Not saying that. Try reading instead of being argumentative. Just10A (talk) 18:32, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Insulting my reading comprehension is not a good look. You argued that the consensus rules "call us to compromise," which I rebutted. The fact you don't like being told "no" is your own issue. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:04, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

No you didn't. You cited WP:FALSEBALANCE. However, as cited above (and explictly said in my comment if you read it), there are an abundance of reliable sources and significant weight that associates antifa with the "far-left." Thus, it's not false balance, it's cooperating with editors to properly convey what the myriad of sources reflect. WP:CONSENSUS explicitly says to "try to think of a compromise edit that addresses the other editor's concerns" and promotes collaboration. So yes, it does call us to compromise when the RS supports it. Again, come back after you've read next time. Just10A (talk) 19:18, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Insisting on personal attacks, I see. Yes, I cited FALSEBALANCE because that's what your argument boils down to: give in to your side as "compromise" instead of adhering to WP:DUE. I'll not be replying any further, since you seem determined to have the last word. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:54, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Again, FALSEBALANCE applies to fringe theories, not things openly and meticulously sourced by many editors and reliable sources. I realize it's tempting to want to argue back when someone says something you don't like, but you should really give Wikipedia policy an objective look before doing such things.

Also, just to be clear, there were no personal attacks in this exchange. Just10A (talk) 21:30, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Just10A that it is not fringe to say that antifa is far left, but falsebalance still applies if it's a minority view. This is why I emphasise below that putting forward instances of the use of "far left" isn't enough; to use that phrase in the lead in our voice, we need to see that it is what the preponderance of good sources (ideally the best sources) say, and not a minority view. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:56, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

@Just10A: Gotcha, thanks for clarifying. If it wasn't clear, I object to this specific phrasing because it seems to be novel and reads awkwardly to me. VQuakr (talk) 21:14, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Do you have an alternative phrasing? Could help with compromising. 3Kingdoms (talk) 02:41, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't see any issues with the extant description of "left wing". It's a blanket term that doesn't need further qualification. VQuakr (talk) 21:03, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

then why are they already adding "far-right" to matt gaetz ? 2601:580:4580:9F30:C147:966E:51E8:2377 (talk) 16:19, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

should be "far left wing" 100% 170.55.61.26 (talk) 23:51, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

• Comment on sourcing. Clearly some sources use "far-left" or "far left" to describe contemporary US antifa. Showing this does is not sufficient for us using this designation in our voice in the lead. There are a huge number of potential sources on this topic, so to use a descriptor in our voice in the lead we would need to see that (a) the WP:BESTSOURCES use it, (b) the preponderance of (and not just some) reliable sources tend to use it, (c) no more than an insignificant minority of RSs reject, contest or contradict it. So far, yes-!voters are simply dropping in arbitrary examples, but none of them so far seem to be good examples of best sources. To make it easier, some suggestions on sources that aren't best sources:

• scholarly articles by scholars in other fields, e.g. social media, who are not experts on political ideologies and movements.[[27]
• introductory pieces from 2017 when "antifa" was suddenly in the public eye and mainstream news sources rushed out badly researched "explainers" on a topic that they were obviously new to, and which were superseded by better sources later.[28][29][30]
• takes from advocacy organisations that are borderline reliable and hostile to the left.[[31]
• pieces that identify them with the left including the far left rather than with the far left specifically, e.g. CNN's very cautious "The term is used to define a broad group of people whose political beliefs lean toward the left – often the far left – but do not conform with the Democratic Party platform."[32] or PBS's "antifa is not a single organization but rather an umbrella term for far-left-leaning movements that confront or resist neo-Nazis and white supremacists".[33]
• opinion pieces by people who are not experts on the topic.[34][35]
• anything by right-wing blogger and "persistent internet troll" Eoin Lenihan.[36]
• articles about other topics.[37]

BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:42, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Major, mainstream media cannot be dismissed as biased sources. BBC is not biased: "far-left"; Reuters is not biased: "far-left"; PBS is not biased: "far-left"; The New York Times is not biased: "far-left"; The Los Angeles Times is not biased: "far-left"; etc. A veritable abundance, rather than your very inaccurate "mostly." -The Gnome (talk) 14:54, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Agree with this assessment by the Gnome. This is a pretty conclusive set of very reliable sources that use this label, multiple times. — Czello ^(music) 14:59, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I didn't call these sources biased. Maybe read what I actually wrote. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:09, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

You dismissed every single source that does not abide by the lie about Antifa being simply an organization of the broad left, like the social-democrats, the socialists, the neo-marxists, and others. And, yes, of course, I read what the opposite party is proffering as arguments before addressing them. So, brass tacks: I simply cited impeccable sources. Which go against your general and quite unfair dismissal. Seize the opportunity and, as a short cut, consider in a somber manner whether Antifa per sources looks to be closer to a Socialist party or to a anarchist organization. -The Gnome (talk) 20:45, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

P.S. Frankly, since you are a member of Antifa yourself, I'd expect a better defense against the term "far-left." Are there, for example, instances or cases, of intentional avoidance of violence, of non-radical speech, and the like? -The Gnome (talk) 20:45, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Please note that both our article and all reliable sources are clear that antifa doesn't have "members".

And yes, all of the reliable sources make it clear that violence is more often than not avoided. E.g. USA Today: lack of highly public engagement by anti-fascists [in 2021] doesn’t mean the movement has gone away. Antifa experts and self-proclaimed anti-fascists said activists do what they have always done: quietly research and expose racists, bigots and other people who mean harm to their fellow Americans and work on community projects that support marginalized people. “In the broad spectrum of activities that are effective in anti-fascism, most go completely unnoticed compared to street action, which is really just the tip of the spear,” said Chad Loder, an anti-fascist activist in Southern California. “That’s really just an activity of last resort for Antifa.” Because many people define Antifa only by the actions of a minority of activists, rather than recognizing the entirety of the movement, they miss the whole picture, said Stanislav Vysotsky, a professor of criminology and author of the book "American Antifa." “The street demonstrator is such a small portion of what anti-fascist activism entails that it's very much blown out of proportion," Vysotsky said. “Ninety-five percent of anti-fascist activism is nonconfrontational and nonviolent.” BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:58, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Major mainstream media is mot WP:BESTSOURCE and balancing appropriate academic work against mainstream media is WP:FALSEBALANCE.Simonm223 (talk) 17:08, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Per my point (c) above, I have now added a (collapsed) list of sources that contest or contradict the "far left" designation to my !vote in the survey above. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:59, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

"revolutionaries"

I've been going through the cites in the lead, due to the RfC above, and I'm now questioning this text which has been in the lead for a long time: A majority of individuals involved are anarchists, communists, and socialists who describe themselves as revolutionaries, and have little allegiance to liberal democracy, although some social democrats also participate in the antifa movement. I notice the citations in what is now footnote 7 are all from 2017, suggesting this was edited in then, but I don't think the sourcing is very strong or reflects best sources now. It might be too much to deal with this at the same time as the "far left" question, but if other editors are looking at sources too maybe it's good to consider it at the same time. Revolutionaries is supported by Bray: anti-fascism is an illiberal politics of social revolutionism applied to fighting the Far Right... Militant anti-fascists disagree with the pursuit of state bans against “extremist” politics because of their revolutionary, anti-state politics and because such bans are more often used against the Left than the Right (He says the same thing in his interview with Vox) But it is not supported by the BBC, NYT, WaPo or Al-Jazeera, the other sources in the footnote, and I don't feel it reflects the preponderance of good sources. My instinct, then, might be to delete "who describe themselves as revolutionaries" from the lead, even if we leave the similar phrasing in the "Movement structure and ideology" section of the body. Thoughts? BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:29, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia follows developments. If a party or an organization followed, very schematically put, ideology A and now follow ideology B, both A and B have their place in the respective article, one as a historical reference and the other as a description of the present. -The Gnome (talk) 08:34, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes I think that's right, but the sources don't say they were and now they aren't; it's just that there a small number of sources from 2017 that said something like this which makes me think this is a leftover from when we were first building the page due to a surge of interest in 2017. My question is more about whether it's DUE in the lead. I have no strong feeling on this. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:50, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I would say not due. Simonm223 (talk) 14:25, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

There are no "members of antifa"

the intro promotes the ignorant right-wing trope that there is a group named ANTIFA. 2001:56B:9FE1:560:0:49:CDB8:E001 (talk) 12:12, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

• I do not think it does, why do you? How would you re-phrase it differently? TFD (talk) 14:05, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
• Well, not to belabor the obvious (of course, such a grouping exists, though I would not chase after actuaries registering them) but one of Wikipedia's editors, rather busy in the above discussion on whether Antifa is "left" or "far left," is stating they are a member of Antifa. Should we warn them off an entity that does not exist? -The Gnome (talk) 12:26, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

  Who says they are a member? Or maybe they belong to a group which does have members. But in any case, antifa is not an entity, per sources it is a movement. What supporters call themselves doesn't matter. I've changed the lead to make that clearer. Doug Weller talk 12:54, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

  Literally nobody in this conversation has stated they are "a member of Antifa". On which editor are you casting aspersions here? BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:04, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

  Need a disambiguation page: Antifa - an abbreviation for antifascist. Anteefa - a conspiracy theory that leftist revolutionary vanguards in the United States are using antifascist actions as a lampshade to foment violent revolution. Simonm223 (talk) 14:26, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

“Non-violent”??

The following discussion is closed and will soon be archived: (non-admin closure) this is not actionable. the editor needs to read the full sentence next time. Simonm223 (talk) 14:54, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

---

 Factually incorrect - the statement in the lede regarding diversity of tactics is sourced to two citations.
This adjective in the opening description is not supported and should be deleted. 2603:7080:A704:409E:B044:CF04:598C:C769 (talk) 14:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

There are three citations for that statement at the end of the third paragraph. — Czello ^(music) 14:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Murder of a Donald J. Trump supporter

The article specifies that Trump wanted to designate the organization as "terrorist", but it's not explained that this happened following the fact that the political activity of antifa protesters has been at the center of various controversies, among them the murder of a Donald J. Trump supporter: https://www.voanews.com/a/usa_race-america_antifa-protester-implicated-killing-trump-supporter-oregon/6195248.html. 217.196.104.205 (talk) 21:42, 1 February 2025 (UTC)

It actually happened before the killing, for example in May 2020.[38] There's no reason to assume that Trump wanting to label them as a terrorist group had anything to do with actions they have ever taken. He doesn't seem to take facts into consideration when making decisions. TFD (talk) 22:04, 1 February 2025 (UTC)

Your last sentence isn't supported by sources, Trump isn't a crazy person who always says random things. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.196.104.201 (talk) 22:13, 1 February 2025 (UTC)

Don't be tendentious. There are an abundance of sources that support what TFD said fully. Simonm223 (talk) 01:03, 2 February 2025 (UTC)