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Suggested collaboration topic

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TL;DR. I have always been a content creator. Per WP:AGF, I believe we are here to build an encyclopedia. Inspired by some recent discussions/comments, I'd like to propose an experiment in good will and collaboration: developing this badly-needed, and obviously controversial topic, from a redirect into a proper article, with the aim of reaching Good Article.

I extend this proposal to parties active in the recent ArbCom case and individuals who presented substantive evidence. Our time, IMHO, would be better spend creating content, rather then "arbitrating". Let's create, not destroy. Let's show the world what Wikipedia spirit is about.

I am pinging people who have been active in the recent discussions: @TrangaBellam @Volunteer Marek @Ealdgyth @Gitz6666 @GizzyCatBella @My very best wishes @Elinruby @K.e.coffman @Horse Eye's Back @Chumchum7 @Nihil novi (if I forgot anyone, please don't hesitate to ping them about this discussion). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:13, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Need a definition of Poland. Elinruby (talk) 12:18, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I'd like to contribute. Missing pings to possibly interested editors include @Levivich, @François Robere, @Marcelus, @Ppt91, @Dreamcatcher25 Gitz (talk) (contribs) 18:12, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Gitz6666 Thanks for the ping. @Piotrus I think this is a noble idea and I'd like to contribute to the best of my abilities. By creating this article from scratch, I hope, the conversation will be inherently more constructive.
In the meantime, my pragmatic self has a few questions regarding historical and political scope: How far back are we planning to go? Will this article cover the modern period of, say, 1815 to now? Or will it begin with the 16th century similarly to the relevant section in Racism in Poland? In the case of the latter, I imagine we'd treat Poland, for the purpose of the article title, as synonymous to Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, along the lines of "The development of Judaism in Poland and the Commonwealth" in History of Jews in Poland? I'd also like to think about ways in which modern political institutions have contributed to the growth of anti-Semitism in Poland, particularly in the aftermath of World War II, something I think is missing in its current iteration. These are, of course, just some of my initial thoughts and I realize taking on this project would necessitate addressing much more than just that.
I also think it would be a good idea for each person willing to work on this to identify their specific strengths in terms of periods. While I am a trained art historian, I have a pretty good awareness/command of Polish historiography dealing with the broadly construed modern period and I'd be most inclined to focus on interwar through to 1950s for this specific project (Stalinist Poland in particular, as that overlaps historically with my dissertation.) But then again, I've never worked on an article of this scope with multiple people, so I am not sure how best to divide the labor.
Looking forward to hearing what other people think. It'd be certainly great to make this happen. Ppt91talk 19:03, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Ppt91 @Elinruby Regarding scope. I think Poland can be broadly construed, and we need to cover history too, just like the History of Jews does... . Assuming we find RS for that, of course.
Regarding how to start, ideally, I'd like to find an overview article for this, maybe from some Encyclopedia of Antisemitism or such, even better if the topic was covered by 2+ overview works, then summarize it/them here. Then editors interested in various aspects could use other soruces to develop it further. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:18, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Piotrus I think that @Marcelus makes a good point about terminology and about the meaning of Antisemitism as something distinctly modern, although I also believe that the title "Antisemitism in Poland" is fine as long as these distinctions are made. I also wonder about the most reliable kind of overview of this subject.
The first source that comes to mind as a more recent extensive scholarly study is Alina Cala's Jew. The Eternal Enemy? The History of Antisemitism in Poland from 2018, in which she examines Polish adaptation of "Judeophobia" in the 16th-century as an ideological foundation for modern Antisemitism forming in the late 19th-century. She draws on the history of Christianity, folk history, and Western European origins of many Jewish stereotypes, and the important role of "intelligentsia," among other important concepts; in other words, it feels thorough and not driven by any specific agenda.
I don't believe her work is mentioned in either Racism in Poland or History of the Jews in Poland, but I think that starting in the 16th century for the purpose of this article, and distinguishing such concepts like Judeophobia from modern anti-Semitism, would be a good route to take. This is just one idea and I am open to other suggestions with the understanding that we adapt a historical and theoretical framework that would not be overwhelming for an uninformed reader. Ppt91talk 17:08, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Ppt91 Very interesting point; I recently stubbed Modernity and the Holocaust and one of the reviews I read was talking about this issue (i.e. the meaning of Antisemitism as something distinctly modern, and whether such meaning is accurate). The source you bring certainly seems very useful. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:21, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I just noticed her book had already been included in the sources below earlier today, but still think it might be one of the most thorough/up to date ones among them. Ppt91talk 23:04, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, Cala's book seems to be one of the most promising sources. However, it deals mainly with antisemitism as a cultural or political ideal and thus with the origin of antisemitism as an ideology, whereas an article on antisemitism in Poland should also deal with social and political history, e.g., actual persecutions, pogroms, etc. From a practical point of view, I think the following two short articles could also be very useful because they could provide the "structure" of the article - the main points to be addressed. If it seems useful, I may publish a short synopsis/index in the next few days.
  • Paulsson, Steven (2005). "Poland (1918-1989)". In Levy, Richard S. (ed.). Antisemitism: a historical encyclopedia of prejudice and persecution. Santa Barbara, Calif.: ABC-CLIO. pp. 553–556. ISBN 1-85109-444-X. OCLC 60777788.
  • Paulsson, Steven (2005). "Poland since 1989". In Levy, Richard S. (ed.). Antisemitism: a historical encyclopedia of prejudice and persecution. Santa Barbara, Calif.: ABC-CLIO. p. 557. ISBN 1-85109-444-X. OCLC 60777788.
By the way, Léon Poliakov, Histoire de l'antisémitisme, 1955 (which I have only in the Italian edition), devotes many pages to the Polish case to illustrate the birth of modern antisemitism: "the problem of Polish anti-Semitism soon arose quite differently than in any other European country". Gitz (talk) (contribs) 00:33, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Gitz6666 @Piotrus @Dreamcatcher25 Forgive my slight delay in replying and thanks for adding more ideas. It looks like across the three sources, two Paulsson chapters and the Cala book, we have a good initial structure to work with. I am happy to draft a short outline in a separate talk thread below to get the ball rolling? We can then edit accordingly and divide it up among editors once ready. @Marcelus do you feel more comfortable with this kind of approach? It'd be great to hear what other people think and to get a rough idea of how many other editors would like to participate. Ppt91talk 17:23, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good to me. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 17:28, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've created a subpage "Draft". I think it's easier to work there than having multiple threads on this t/p, which we can use to discuss the draft. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 17:28, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the ping, but to be completely fair I'm not totally sold on the idea; wouldn't it be just a WP:CFORK of History of Jews in Poland, just with a bit more emphasis on the negative aspect? The main points will be common, as the basic facts will have to be repeated. I would also like to note that there is a difference between anti-Judaism and anti-Semitism, the latter being a rather modern phenomenon. Will this article take this difference into account and cover only the latter? Marcelus (talk) 19:15, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcelus I understand your concerns - we also have Racism_in_Poland#Jews. But the linked section is poor, and the History of Jews is not really about antisemitism. So I think, since the topic is obviously notable (just check this GScholar query) I think we can try to develop something here that's not forkish and that is much better sourced than anything in those older articles. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:21, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
PS. We also have Antisemitism_in_Europe#Poland but it's poorly referenced. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:16, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Always glad to help. Since I have some experience in writing the articles about Antisemitism in interwar Poland and Holocaust in Poland (and I have a lot of sources) I believe I could give some input. However, from my perspective, the most important issue is to settle what kind of sources will be allowed in this "project". To be more specific... Will the Polish sources be allowed and if yes, to what extent? To be honest, you don't need to quote any overall rules, I would rather know if and to what extent we could use the Polish books/articles published before 1989, the IPN's publications etc. I will certainly not start any work without any consensus on that matter.Dreamcatcher25 (talk) 20:21, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My view on this is that Article sourcing expectations and WP:NOENG rule, which means:
  1. RS must be high quality source[s] (an article in a peer-reviewed scholarly journals, an academically focused book by a reputable publisher, and/or an article published by a reputable institution)
  2. non-English reliable sources are allowed but, if possible, English-language sources should be preferred. IMHO the underlying reason is not "cultural imperialism," which though is a real danger, but the fact that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia for clever readers and clever readers don't trust Wikipedia - they check the sources; if the sources cannot easily be verified, Wikipedia works worse.
Moreover, I think it would be kind that, when a non-English source is added, editors provide either a rough (machine-made) translation on the talk page or (even better, if possible) an accurate verbatim quotation and translation in the footnote (so that the reader can check). Perhaps we could use a talk subpage for sources and quotations. It is hard for me to write in English and I have no expertise on the subject, but I have some good sources already available and could provide some excerpts, if you think it's helpful. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 22:49, 21 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Literature review

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As I noted above, it may be a good idea to look for sources that attempt to discuss this topic comprehensivelly, i.e. ideally, reliable encyclopedias that have articles on antisemitism in Poland.

I'll start with this: Klaus-Peter Friedrich's chapter Antisemitism in Poland in Salzborn, Samuel (2010). Antisemitism in Eastern Europe: History and Present in Comparison. Peter Lang. ISBN 978-3-631-59828-3.. Editor is Samuel Salzborn [de]. Publisher is Peter Lang (publisher). Friedrich's background has been briefly touched upon here. The source looks reliable and useful - what do you think? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:28, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

After some quick search I found such books and articles, which possibly might be used as a source for this topic. Mostly in Polish, some in English. Please fell free to make any comments.Dreamcatcher25 (talk) 11:12, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • General
    • (1993) Jerzy Tomaszewski (ed.): Najnowsze dzieje Żydów w Polsce w zarysie (do 1950 roku). Warsaw: Wydawnictwo Naukowe PWN
    • (2005) Robert Blobaum (ed.): Antisemitism and its Opponents in Modern Poland. Ithaca: Cornell University Press
    • (2012) Alina Cała: Żyd - wróg odwieczny? Antysemityzm w Polsce i jego źródła. Warsaw: Jewish Historical Institute
    • (2015) Joanna Beata Michlic: Obcy jako zagrożenie. Obraz Żyda w Polsce od roku 1880 do czasów obecnych. Warsaw: Jewish Historical Institute
    • (2015) Ireneusz Krzemiński (ed.): Żydzi – problem prawdziwego Polaka. Antysemityzm, ksenofobia i stereotypy narodowe po raz trzeci. Warsaw: Wydawnictwa Uniwersytetu Warszawskiego.
    • (2018) Sławomir Buryła, Kamil Kijek, August Grabski (ed.): Pogromy Żydów na ziemiach polskich w XIX i XX wieku volumes 1-4. Warsaw: Instytut Historii PAN
  • Blood libel
    • (1995) Zenon Guldon, Jacek Wijaczka: Procesy o mordy rytualne w Polsce w XVI–XVIII wieku, Kielce: Wydawnictwo DCF
    • (1995) Hanna Węgrzynek: "Czarna legenda" Żydów". Procesy o rzekome mordy rytualne w dawnej Polsce. Warsaw: Bellona
    • (2008) Joanna Tokarska-Bakir: Legendy o krwi. Antropologia przesądu. Warsaw: Wydawnictwo W.A.B.
    • (2011) Jolanta Żyndul: Kłamstwo krwi: legenda mordu rytualnego na ziemiach polskich w XIX i XX wieku. Warsaw: Wydawnictwo Cyklady
  • Modern antisemitism in Poland (before 1939)
    • (1989) Yisrael Gutman, Ezra Mendelsohn, Jehuda Reinharz, Chone Shmeruk: The Jews of Poland Between Two World Wars. Hanover and London: University Press of New England.
    • (1994) Jolanta Żyndul: Zajścia antyżydowskie w Polsce w latach 1935-1937. Warsaw: Jewish Historical Institute
    • (1999) Monika Natkowska: Numerus clausus, getto ławkowe, numerus nullus, "paragraf aryjski" : antysemityzm na Uniwersytecie Warszawskim 1931-1939. Warsaw: Jewish Historical Institute
    • (2000) Ronadl E. Modras: The Catholic Church and Antisemitism, Poland, 1933-1939. Psychology Press
    • (2005) P. Wróbel, The Kaddish Years. Anti-Jewish Violence in East Central Europe, 1918–1921, „Simon Dubnow Institute Yearbook” vol. 4.
    • (2015) Małgorzata Domagalska: Zatrute ziarno. Proza antysemicka na łamach "Roli" (1883-1912). Warsaw: Polskie Towarzystwo Historyczne & Wydawnictwo Neriton
    • (2018) William W. Hagen: Anti-Jewish Violence in Poland, 1914–1920. Cambridge University Press
    • (2018) Artur Markowski: Przemoc antyżydowska i wyobrażenia społeczne. Pogrom białostocki 1906 r. Warsaw: Wydawnictwa Uniwersytetu Warszawskiego
  • Holocaust
    • (1976) Emanuel Ringelblum: Polish-Jewish relations during the Second World War. Jerusalem: Yad Vashem
    • (2000) Tomasz Szarota: U progu Zagłady. Zajścia antyżydowskie i pogromy w okupowanej Europie. Warszawa, Paryż, Amsterdam, Antwerpia, Kowno. Warsaw: Wydawnictwo Sic!
    • (2002) Piotr Machcewicz, Krzysztof Persak: Wokół Jedwabnego vol. 1–2. Warsaw: Institute of National Remembrance
    • (2004) Jan Grabowski, "Ja tego żyda znam!". Szantażowanie żydów w Warszawie, 1939–1943. Warsaw: Stowarzyszenie Centrum Badań nad Zagładą Żydów
    • (2003) Gunnar S. Paulsson: Secret city: the hidden Jews of Warsaw, 1940-1945. New Haven; London: Yale University Press
    • (2006) Andrzej Żbikowski (ed.): Polacy i Żydzi pod okupacją niemiecką 1939–1945. Studia i materiały. Warsaw: Institute of National Remembrance
    • (2009) Barbara Engelking, Dariusz Libionka, Żydzi w powstańczej Warszawie. Warsaw: Stowarzyszenie Centrum Badań nad Zagładą Żydów
    • (2009) Adam Puławski: W obliczu Zagłady. Rząd RP na Uchodźstwie, Delegatura Rządu RP na Kraj, ZWZ-AK wobec deportacji Żydów do obozów zagłady (1941–1942) . Lublin: Institute of National Remembrance
    • (2012) Joanna Tokarska-Bakir: Okrzyki pogromowe. Szkice z antropologii historycznej Polski lat 1939–1946, Wołowiec: Czarne
    • (2013) Jan Grabowski: Hunt for the Jews : betrayal and murder in German-occupied Poland. Bloomington, Indiana: Indiana University Press
    • (2016) Barbara Engelking: Such a beautiful sunny day... Jews seeking refuge in the Polish countryside, 1942-1945. Jerusalem: Yad Vashem. The International Institute for Holocaust Research, The Center for Research on the Holocaust in Poland
    • (2017) Jan Grabowski: The Polish police: collaboration in the Holocaust. Washington: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
    • (2018) Jan Grabowski, Barbara Engelking (ed.): Dalej jest noc. Losy Żydów w wybranych powiatach okupowanej Polski. Warsaw: Stowarzyszenie Centrum Badań nad Zagładą Żydów
    • (2018) Witold Mędykowski, W cieniu gigantów. Pogromy 1941 r. w byłej sowieckiej strefie okupacyjnej. Jeruzalem.
    • (2018) Adam Puławski: Wobec „niespotykanego w dziejach mordu". Rząd RP na uchodźstwie, Delegatura Rządu RP na Kraj, AK a eksterminacja ludności żydowskiej od „wielkiej akcji" do powstania w getcie warszawskim. Chełm: Stowarzyszenie Rocznik Chełmski
  • After 1945
    • (1991) Jerzy Eisler: Marzec 1968. Geneza, przebieg, konsekwencje: Warsaw: PWN
    • (1998) Marzec 1968. Trzydzieści lat później, red. Marcin Kula, Piotr Osęka, Marcin Zaremba, t. 1–2, Warsaw: Wydawnictwo Naukowe PWN
    • (1999) Piotr Osęka: Syjoniści, inspiratorzy, wichrzyciele. Obraz wroga w propagandzie marca 1968. Warsaw: Jewish Historical Institute
    • (2000) Dariusz Stola: Kampania antysyjonistyczna w Polsce 1967–1968, Warsaw: Instytut Studiów Politycznych Polskiej Akademii Nauk
    • (2000) Anna Cichopek: Pogrom Żydów w Krakowie. 11 sierpnia 1945. Warsaw: Jewish Historical Institute
    • (2006) Jerzy Eisler: Polski rok 1968. Warsaw: Institute of National Remembrance.
    • (2006–2008): Łukasz Kamiński, Jan Żaryn: Wokół pogromu kieleckiego vol. 1–2. Warsaw: Institute of National Remembrance
    • (2008) Piotr Osęka: Marzec ’68. Cracow: Znak & Instytut Studiów Politycznych Polskiej Akademii Nauk
    • (2010) Jean-Yves Potel: Koniec niewinności. Polska wobec swojej żydowskiej przeszłości. Cracow: Znak.
    • (2014) Alina Cała: Ochrona bezpieczeństwa fizycznego Żydów w Polsce powojennej. Komisje specjalne przy Centralnym Komitecie Żydów w Polsce. Warsaw: Jewish Historical Institute
    • (2018) Hans-Christian Dahlmann: Antysemityzm w Polsce roku 1968. Warsaw: Jewish Historical Institute

If you send me an email I can help you find a copy of the following books relevant to this project:

Gitz (talk) (contribs) 14:23, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Adding one to the above: Joanna Tokarska-Bakir, Rzeczy mgliste. Eseje i studia (2004). It has the advantage of being shared online by the author [1] and the disadvantage of being in Polish and I think not-OCRed. It seems to deal with Polish antisemitism through history, with focus on folklore. It collects her essays and articles. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:43, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Created a Draft subpage

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As explained above, I've created a subpage "Draft": Talk:Antisemitism_in_Poland/Draft. I think it's easier to work there than having multiple threads on this t/p, which we can use to discuss the draft. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 17:28, 25 March 2023 (UTC) Gitz (talk) (contribs) 17:29, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Gitz6666 Good idea. Thanks for doing that. I'll try to add a preliminary outline by Monday latest. Ppt91talk 18:25, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Gitz6666 Comments on your recent addition (which seem quite good). First, the quotation may need paraphrasing per WP:QUOTATION, it's a bit long.
Second, for "the city burghers loathed them as competitors in trade and crafts", I immediately thought of the case of Paradisus Judaeorum, a poem whose author "may have been a Catholic townsman, perhaps a priest jealous of the influence of Jews and others, such as Protestants and nobility, who somehow competed with Catholic townspeople". It probably could worked into the text, perhaps the verys entence you wrote, as an example. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:47, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Piotrus. Yes, the long quotation was not meant to be included in the article - it's just rough material that we might summarise and place somewhere in the article. I think it might be helpful to have some quotations and rough materials such as that quotation, and to make it clear that they are just notes and working texts we could apply (as I've just now done) the template:tqb, which should not be used in Namespace0. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 07:54, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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