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Is "intrinsically genocidal" attribution verifiable?

[edit]

This article (as do several others) attributes to Raphael Lemkin the notion that colonization is "intrinsically genocidal". This attribution appears to originate from A. Dirk Moses's 2004 book Genocide and Settler Society: Frontier Violence and Stolen Indigenous Children in Australian History:

In fact, Lemkin hints that genocide is intrinsically colonial and that therefore settler colonialism is intrinsically genocidal. The basis of this conclusion is the aim of the colonizer to supplant the original inhabitants of the land. In relation to the Nazis, he thought that the

coordinated German techniques of occupation must lead to the conclusion that the German occupant has embarked upon a gigantic scheme to change, in favor of Germany, the balance of biological forces between it and the captive nations for many years to come. The objective of this scheme is to destroy or to cripple the subjugated people in their development.

o Dirk Moses claims that Lemkin "hints" that genocide is intrinsically colonial, but provides a supporting quote in Chapter 1 of the 2008 book he edited. But Moses's contorted claim---that from "genocide is intrinsically colonial" it logically follows that "settler colonialism is intrinsically genocidal"---is ridiculous. It's an example of the fallacy of the converse, which is one of the first fallacies that students in any field requiring rational thought are taught to avoid. It's similar to saying "All ballistic missiles fly, so anything that flies is a ballistic missile.". Lemkin's quote above, in which he mentions Nazi German atrocities, does nothing to support the notion that all colonial endeavors are genocidal. Lemkin cataloging the worst examples of colonial actions does not automatically equate to a blanket statement covering all possible examples.

Without proper attribution from a reliable source, this claim built on a logical fallacy should not be attributed to Lemkin. Here are the Wikipedia articles and sources relating to this attribution:

(Note: The articles Settler colonialism and Settler colonialism in Canada transclude an expert from this article containing this attribution.)

Now let's take a look at the verifiability of these resources:

  • Lemkin, 1944:[6] Lemkin himself does not appear to make this claim in this book---not before the chapter on Genocide, where he focuses on Germany; not in the chapter on Genocide (Chapter IX); and not after, in the portion of the book that covers non-German regimes.
  • Moses, 2004:[4] As discussed above, this source is unreliable, as the text depends on a logical fallacy.
  • Moses, 2008:[3] Moses presents his conclusion from 2004, again without references, making it no more verifiable than his 2004 logical fallacy.
  • Forge, 2012:[5] Cites Moses, 2008, pp. 8-9, mentioned above.
  • Short, 2016:[2] Cites Moses, 2008, p. 9.
  • Irvin-Erickson, 2020:[1] Support given for Lemkin claiming that genocide was a colonial practice, but no support for the converse.

Conclusion: The claim that Lemkin stated or believed that colonization is intrinsically genocidal is not verifiable through current Wikipedia references.

References

  1. ^ a b c d Irvin-Erickson, Douglas (2020). "Raphaël Lemkin: Genocide, cultural violence, and community destruction". In Greenland, Fiona; Göçek, Fatma Müge (eds.). Cultural Violence and the Destruction of Human Communities. Routledge. doi:10.4324/9781351267083-3. ISBN 978-1-351-26708-3. S2CID 234701072. In a footnote, he added that genocide could equally be termed 'ethnocide', with the Greek ethno meaning 'nation'.
  2. ^ a b c Short, Damien (2016). Redefining Genocide: Settler Colonialism, Social Death and Ecocide. Bloomsbury Publishing. p. 69. ISBN 978-1-84813-546-8. Archived from the original on 16 March 2023. Retrieved 1 June 2022.
  3. ^ a b c Moses, A. Dirk (2008). "Empire, Colony, Genocide: Keywords and the Philosophy of History". In Moses, A. Dirk (ed.). Empire, Colony, Genocide: Conquest, Occupation, and Subaltern Resistance in World History. Berghahn Books. pp. 3–54. ISBN 978-1-84545-452-4.
  4. ^ a b c Moses, A. Dirk (2004). Moses, A. Dirk (ed.). Genocide and Settler Society: Frontier Violence and Stolen Indigenous Children in Australian History. Berghahn Books. ISBN 978-1571814104.
  5. ^ a b c Forge, John (2012). Designed to Kill: The Case Against Weapons Research. Springer. ISBN 978-9400757356.
  6. ^ a b Lemkin, Raphael (1944). Axis Rule in Occupied Europe: Laws of Occupation, Analysis of Government, Proposals for Redress. Washington, DC: The Lawbook Exchange.

Dotyoyo (talk) 20:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Are you questioning that Lemkin has a tradition of anti- colonial thought and that he doesn't believe genocide is a process that emerges from colonial relations? Or are you simply saying the sources that are here don't explicitly say this? I ask because his interpretation has been the subject of academic debate for quite some time.Fitzmaurice, Andrew (2010). "Anticolonialism in Western Political Thought: The Colonial Origins of the Concept of Genocide". Empire, Colony, Genocide: Conquest, Occupation, and Subaltern Resistance in World History (1 ed.). Berghahn Books. p. 55–80. JSTOR j.ctt9qd5qb.5. Retrieved 2025-01-07. Most chapters in this book are concerned by the degree to which the term "genocide," coined by Raphael Lemkin in 1944 and adopted by the United Nations in 1948, can be used to understand the devastation wrought by colonization over the past five hundred years.¹ This chapter will invert that question: that is, it will show that Lemkin's understanding of genocide developed out of a critique of colonization that had its origins in the sixteenth century and was sustained by successive generations of writers on natural and human rights.
A lot has been written about this Luck list some good sources at Luck, Edward (2018-09-21). "Cultural Genocide and the Protection of Cultural Heritage". Cultural Genocide. Retrieved 2025-01-07. There is no dispute that the credit for the conception of genocide, including its cultural component, belongs to one man, Raphael Lemkin - There has been a marked expansion of the literature on Lemkin and his theory of genocide. See, for instance, Douglas Irvin-Erickson, Raphaёl Lemkin and the Concept of Genocide (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 2017); John Cooper, Raphael Lemkin and the Struggle for the Genocide Convention (New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 2008); and William Korey, An Epitaph for Raphael Lemkin (New York: Jacob Blaustein Institute for the Advancement of Human Rights, 2001).AMoxy🍁 21:10, 7 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Moxy: No, and no. You write "genocide is a process that emerges from colonial relations". Lemkin certainly described many specific colonial regimes, and the genocidal aspects of their activities. I have no doubt that he would have agreed that colonial relations have many times resulted in genocide. But did he state that colonization is "intrinsically genocidal"? Did he state that any colonial activity categorically implies the commission of genocide, even for the dozens or hundreds of cases he didn't write about? I have some marginal cases in mind, but I don't want this to devolve into a discussion of specific cases. Rather, I'm just reminding editors of Wikipedia's principles. I think this topic warrants correct attribution, meaning that we should align any attributions of broad, sweeping claims to Lemkin with reliable sources, or remove them, especially if they're based on logically flawed and unsourced claims. Dotyoyo (talk) 03:18, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This is easily sourced including the widespread use of the exact wording editors have used here....that to me is sourced in these articles. The academic world is decades into debating his analysis not what his pov is. his point of view on colonialism is still the example used today when debating current cultural genocides. We'll see if I can get input from other experience editors in this field.Moxy🍁 03:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Moxy: Could you clarify what you mean by your first sentence? Are you saying that you think supporting WP:RS could be found somewhere, or that the sources referenced already suffice, or something else? You don't seem to have responded to what I wrote at the beginning of this section, so I don't know whether you've read and understand it. Lastly, it's of course the meaning of the sources that matters (from whatever decade), not the exact wording. Dotyoyo (talk) 05:16, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Both - Lemkin pov is basic knowledge in the field and is widely used source by academics - and I see no problem with A. Dirk Moses (Moses2004, p. 27) pov about this.
  • Mcdonnell, Michael A.; Moses, A. Dirk (2005). "Raphael Lemkin as historian of genocide in the Americas". Journal of Genocide Research. 7 (4): 501–529. doi:10.1080/14623520500349951. ISSN 1462-3528. Lemkin extended his definition of genocide in light of his postwar studies of colonialism in "Are settler societies inherently genocidal?
  • Ruzvidzo, Joe. "Genocide is a function of colonialism". Unpublished. Unpublished. doi:10.13140/RG.2.2.22466.66248. Lemkin's scholarship has further highlighted. genocide's intrinsically colonialist nature
  • Butcher, Thomas M. (2013). "A 'synchronized attack': On Raphael Lemkin's holistic conception of genocide". Journal of Genocide Research. 15 (3): 253–271. doi:10.1080/14623528.2013.821221. ISSN 1462-3528. the word 'colonization' demonstrates that Lemkin 'defined the concept [of geno- cide] as intrinsically colonial'.
  • "Settler Colonialism and Indigenous Nations". North American Genocides. Cambridge University Press. 2019-07-31. p. 44–70. doi:10.1017/9781108348461.004. ISBN 978-1-108-34846-1. Lemkin's "intrinsically colonial" conception of genocide
  • Melber, Henning (2024-05-21). "German Colonial Amnesia and the Destruction of Gaza". African Arguments. Retrieved 2025-01-08. Raphael Lemkin's original but ignored insight that genocides are intrinsically colonial and that they long precede the twentieth century
  • Verbeeck, Georgi (2024). "3. Was There a Genocide in the Congo Free State?". Colonial Congo. Turnhout, Belgium: Brepols Publishers. p. 41–54. doi:10.1484/m.stmch-eb.5.137736. ISBN 978-2-503-59848-2. Raphael Lemkin's vision on colonial ... intrinsically universalizing claim
Moxy🍁 06:25, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Moxy: I see no problem with A. Dirk Moses (Moses2004, p. 27) pov about this. Since you haven't addressed my point about Moses's leveraging of the fallacy of the converse, I'm not sure you've read and understand what I wrote. An argument with a significant logical flaw is more a blunder than a "POV". If a budget *increased* from $100M to $200M, and a politician claimed that's a significant *decrease*, then their claim would be considered a blunder (or a lie), rather than a "POV". No reasonable person acting with integrity would say "I see no problem with such a claim". To support his claim, Moses (in the quote from his 2004 book cited above) makes what Lemkin said specifically about the German occupation, and applies it to all colonizers. If Lemkin's writings have been so thoroughly studied, where did Lemkin make this leap of generalization? You claim "This is easily sourced"---so where's the source?
Of course, I am not questioning any of the many claims Lemkin made about specific nasty colonial endeavors. Rather, I'm questioning how this article attributes to him a categorical statement about *every* colonial endeavor. Assuming it was Leif Erikson's voyage that set up a colony at L'Anse aux Meadows, was that genocidal? Many countries currently encourage immigration to address labor shortages or an aging population, or to drive economic growth. If a group of such immigrants establish a city as a colony, is that "intrinsically genocidal"? Back in Lemkin's time, the term "colony" was often applied to exactly such scenarios. Lemkin wrote about ugly, genocidal colonial endeavors. For Wikipedia to attribute to him such a categorical statement about *all* colonial endeavors, we need a reliable source indicating that he held that view. Apologies if I'm being repetitive.
You're under no obligation to address my point regarding the lack of a WP:RS for this claim about Lemkin---it could be addressed with one of the approaches listed in WP:SOURCEWRONG---but if you don't, you're not meaningfully engaging in discussion on this topic.
Thanks for the numerous general references on Lemkin and genocide. I haven't found among them support for the disputed categorical claim.
Dotyoyo (talk) 22:10, 24 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

As a replacement for the sentence According to certain genocide scholars, including Raphael Lemkin – the individual who coined the term genocide – colonization is intrinsically genocidal., which does not have a WP:RS, as discussed above, I propose breaking it into the three sentences below.

According to certain genocide scholars, including Raphael Lemkin – the individual who coined the term genocide – genocide is intrinsically colonial.[1][2] Also, according to some, colonialism is intrinsically genocidal.[3][4] Lemkin, however, did not oppose colonization per se, stating that it could involve humane governance that did not amount to genocide.[5][6]

References

  1. ^ Moses, A. Dirk (2008). "Empire, Colony, Genocide: Keywords and the Philosophy of History". In Moses, A. Dirk (ed.). Empire, Colony, Genocide: Conquest, Occupation, and Subaltern Resistance in World History. Berghahn Books. p. 19. ISBN 978-1-84545-452-4. But Lemkin did not just write about genocide in colonial contexts; he defined the concept as intrinsically colonial.
  2. ^ Ruzvidzo, Joe. "Genocide is a function of colonialism". Unpublished. Unpublished: 4. doi:10.13140/RG.2.2.22466.66248. Lemkin's scholarship has further highlighted genocide's intrinsically colonialist nature; much of his unpublished writing reflects on atrocities perpetrated by European colonisers and invaders on various frontiers.[citation needed]
  3. ^ Ruzvidzo, Joe. "Genocide is a function of colonialism". Unpublished. Unpublished: 8. doi:10.13140/RG.2.2.22466.66248. There can be no settler colonialism without settlement. There can be no settlement without resettlement; there can be no placement of a foreign population without a displacement of the indigenous people. Therefore, there can be no colonisation without genocide.[citation needed]
  4. ^ Whitt, Laurelyn; Clarke, Alan W. North American Genocides: Indigenous Nations, Settler Colonialism, and International Law. Cambridge University Press. p. 64. According to some other genocide scholars, colonization is intrinsically genocidal.
  5. ^ Moses, A. Dirk (2008). "Empire, Colony, Genocide: Keywords and the Philosophy of History". In Moses, A. Dirk (ed.). Empire, Colony, Genocide: Conquest, Occupation, and Subaltern Resistance in World History. Berghahn Books. pp. 9–10. ISBN 978-1-84545-452-4. But whereas Césaire thought that "no one colonizes innocently," Lemkin, like Las Casas, did not oppose colonization or empire per se. Empires, humanely governed, contributed to human progress through "diffusion," he implied. [...] Lemkin did not share the outright anti-imperialism of leftist intellectuals like Sartre and Fanon, for whom all empires, at least capitalistic ones, entailed the exploitation and degradation of the indigenous people.
  6. ^ Butcher, Thomas M. (2013). "A 'synchronized attack': On Raphael Lemkin's holistic conception of genocide". Journal of Genocide Research. 15 (3): 262. doi:10.1080/14623528.2013.821221. ISSN 1462-3528. For example, in his typed notes on North American Indians, Lemkin (or possibly a research assistant) wrote that the land cession policies of the US government in the early nineteenth century made it 'obvious that the Indian would have to abandon his hunting grounds and turn to intensive cultivation of land.' These policies constituted 'cultural change of a radical and perhaps inhumane type', but they did not necessarily constitute 'cultural genocide'.

Dotyoyo (talk) 22:34, 24 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Just copied over the words used in an open source that is simpler for all to understand[1], Moxy🍁 23:30, 24 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Bryant, Michael (2020). "Canaries in the Mineshaft of American Democracy: North American Settler Genocide in the Thought of Raphaël Lemkin". Genocide Studies and Prevention. 14 (1): 21–39. doi:10.5038/1911-9933.14.1.1632. ISSN 1911-0359. Retrieved 2025-01-24.
@Moxy: Not as precise, but definitely an improvement. Thanks. Dotyoyo (talk) 02:24, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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