Talk:David Gilbert (snooker player)

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Requested move 2 December 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. There isn't a clear agreement on whether this snooker player is or isn't an WP:INCDAB-compliant primary topic over the other snooker player. Therefore we retain the status quo, which is that the article is housed at David Gilbert (snooker player).  — Amakuru (talk) 15:54, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

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David Gilbert (snooker player) → David Gilbert (snooker player, born 1981) – WP:PDAB; see Dave Gilbert (snooker player, born 1961). 162 etc. (talk) 06:29, 2 December 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 16:51, 10 December 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 09:29, 24 December 2024 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 04:42, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose - this David Gilbert is by far the primary topic for snooker players. A World Championship semi-finalist against someone who never reached a quarter-final in any event. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:33, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 19:31, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
• Weak support the 1981 one has 4,411 views compard with 230[[1]] for the 1961 one which migh not be enough for a PDAB. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:34, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nomination, Ortizesp and Crouch, Swale. Since Dave Gilbert redirects to the David Gilbert dab page, the two name variations are basically the same. The incomplete disambiguation David Gilbert (snooker player) should redirect to the David Gilbert#Sports dab page. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:27, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Theparties (talk) 13:15, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose - It ain't broke, so don't fix it.  Alan  (talk) 11:35, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per Lee Vilenski. Andygray110 (talk) 17:01, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: More opinions? —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 16:51, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:SMALLDIFFS and far more importantly per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. This article gets over 30 x the pageviews of the other. The hatnote is sufficient in this WP:ONEOTHER situation. Station1 (talk) 20:47, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

  WP:PRIMARYTOPIC would mean moving this article to David Gilbert. which nobody so far has proposed. The status quo is actually a WP:PDAB, which is discouraged in most cases. 162 etc. (talk) 21:27, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

  The guideline states "In individual cases consensus may determine that a parenthetically disambiguated title that is still ambiguous has a primary topic, but the threshold for identifying a primary topic for such titles is higher than for a title without parenthetical disambiguation." WP:PDAB is just an information page, and while I agree partial disambiguation is discouraged in most cases, it is definitely not discouraged in cases like this, where one of two articles is overwhelmingly the primary topic for the disambiguated title. Station1 (talk) 21:49, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

• Comment. In my "Support" vote, above, I noted that "The incomplete disambiguation David Gilbert (snooker player) should redirect to the David Gilbert#Sports dab page." However, I neglected to further note that the other incomplete disambiguation — Dave Gilbert (snooker player) — should likewise redirect to the David Gilbert#Sports dab page, rather than redirecting, as it currently does, to the article for David Gilbert (snooker player). —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 21:39, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

  Agree that the DABs and redirects need some sorting out, but still oppose the move as per Lee Vilenski comment above.  Alan  (talk) 09:47, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Another alternative option would be to oppose this nomination — David Gilbert (snooker player) → David Gilbert (snooker player, born 1981) — but to pair this oppose vote with a support vote for Dave Gilbert (snooker player, born 1961) → Dave Gilbert (snooker player), with a hatnote atop each snooker player's entry pointing to the other.

There are 42 inline cites as well as database entry at the bottom of the article for the 1981-born snooker player named "David Gilbert", with none referencing him as "Dave Gilbert", thus it does not appear to be helpful for the 1961-born Dave Gilbert (snooker player) redirecting to the 1981-born David Gilbert (snooker player). —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 02:15, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

It looks like the only reason Dave Gilbert (snooker player) redirects here is because it was created 5 years before the Dave Gilbert (snooker player, born 1961) article was created. The redirect is hardly used (only 46 hits all year so far), so no reason the 1961 player couldn't be moved there. Station1 (talk) 06:07, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd support such a move Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:38, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Makes sense. As long as the David Gilbert (snooker player) article stays as it is. It already has a hatnote for Dave Gilbert (snooker player, born 1961), so it's only the DABs and redirects that need sorting out.  Alan  (talk) 10:52, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

So David Gilbert is always known as David, and never ever as Dave? In that case, then yes, we could move Dave Gilbert (snooker player, born 1961) → Dave Gilbert (snooker player). 162 etc. (talk) 01:47, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Some commentators refer to him as Dave, but all Davids get called Dave occasionally. However, one of our main sources snooker.org uses the same naming convention that we have: David Gilbert and Dave Gilbert. Also the WST refers to him as David Gilbert.  Alan  (talk) 13:08, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support on balance, that's full support as we need to decide but I can see it can be argued both ways. Andrewa (talk) 20:20, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  So that's not really support atall then. I still very much oppose.  Alan  (talk) 20:32, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for the opportunity to clarify. Of course it's up to the closer to determine whether my !vote is not really support. I still very much support. Does that help? Andrewa (talk) 06:17, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Andrewa: It does clarify, thank you. But what do you think of the more elegant solution as proposed by Station1 above (and supported by Lee Vilenski and myself), to leave the David Gilbert (snooker player) article as it is, move the Dave Gilbert (snooker player, born 1961) stub article to Dave Gilbert (snooker player), and then sort out the DABs and redirects to suit? Note that David Gilbert (snooker player) is a prominent member of the World Snooker Tour, currently ranked 21 in the world, and appears in 573 pages to date (according to "What links here"), while Dave Gilbert (snooker player, born 1961) appears in only 37 pages. My original oppose comment "it ain't broke, so don't fix it" still stands.  Alan  (talk) 08:39, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Partial disambiguation is never a good idea. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:44, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not convinced that WP:PDAB applies here. Again, the solution as proposed by Station1 above would work.  Alan  (talk) 14:22, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

  Of course it does. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:09, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

• Support per Roman Spinner. Frost 05:05, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: I still think that both sides have strong arguments with no clear winner. Relisting once again. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 09:29, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

• Weak Oppose as clearly PT among these two with over 30x the pageviews over the long term. Under WP:PARTIALDAB we find that when there is a clear PT, then it might be appropriate for that WP:INCOMPDAB to be retained, such as Thriller (album). The only reason for the weak sentiment is because per INCOMPDAB threshold for identifying a primary topic for such titles is higher than for a title without parenthetical disambiguation. I think it would be unquestionably PT if we were not including this provision, but is the threshold sufficient to meet parenthetical dab levels? I believe so but could be persuaded a higher threshold would be required. TiggerJay (talk) 04:52, 2 January 2025 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Biography/Sports and games and WikiProject Snooker have been notified of this discussion. —usernamekiran (talk) 04:41, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose as David and Dave have a valid WP:SMALLDETAILS difference. Would support the 1961-born snooker player being moved to simply Dave Gilbert (snooker player). Skarmory (talk • contribs) 02:53, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

  I would support this suggestion, but still oppose the original move proposal.  Alan  (talk) 09:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support David and Dave are clearly the same name, anybody known by one could reasonably be referred to by the other. I'm not convinced that one of the people here is so overwhelmingly dominant over the other as to justify partial disambiguation. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 03:05, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

  Although you are correct that David and Dave are the same name, I think that most Davids and Daves use one but not both. As an example, my nephew is called David and hates being called Dave. His father was always referred to as Dave, and never David. So what do you think of the more elegant solution as proposed by Station1 above (and supported by Lee Vilenski and myself), to leave the David Gilbert (snooker player) article as it is, move the Dave Gilbert (snooker player, born 1961) stub article to Dave Gilbert (snooker player), and then sort out the DABs and redirects to suit? I still oppose the original move proposal.  Alan  (talk) 09:33, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

  Oppose – no need Billsmith60 (talk) 21:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support. “Dave” and “David” are too small a SMALLDIFF. SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:09, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

  The fact that Dave Gilbert redirects to the David Gilbert dab page is evidence that this is already accepted. SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

  Not evidence at all. It just means that whoever created that particular redirect didn't think it through.
  I still oppose the original move proposal.  Alan  (talk) 07:37, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

  @AlH42 it appears that you're bludgeon the process. Furthermore please do not bold your oppose each time you say the word, instead let your single WP:!VOTE stand as the only bolded use of the term support or oppose. TiggerJay (talk) 08:11, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

  Sorry - understood. I'll go away then.  Alan  (talk) 08:19, 20 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose I don't really see the problem here. I say leave it alone. Our David Gilbert is by far the primary topic (as Lee said originally) and if it ain't broke don't fix it (as Alan said originally). I can't believe this ridiculous discussion has gone on for so long guys! Rodney Baggins (talk) 08:41, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.