Talk:Fantasie in C (Schumann)

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Removed speculation

I removed the following recently added by Mortonbaychestnut (talk · contribs)

However, a casual glance of the first movement throughout readily reveals several allusions to An die ferne Geliebte, surely something amateurs and professionals alike would have noticed many years previously.

In fact, the above 2-bar phrase from Beethoven's coda is fully quoted as early as bar 17, though rhythmically disguised and transposed up a major 3rd; i.e. Beethoven's "C + ornament, E flat, B flat, B flat, A flat, A flat, G" becomes Schumann's "E, G, G, D, D, C, B". Also, the rising scale at the beginning of the lieder is mirrored by the falling notes (A, G, F, E, D) that comprise the first motive of the Fantasie, and additionally there is also a 5 note descending scale at the end of An die ferne Geliete's 1st theme. Usually such observations of scales may be too incidental and banal to highlight, but perhaps not in this case, as Op. 17 is written ostensibly as a fund-raiser for Beethoven's statue, not to mention the subject matter of An die ferne Geliebte and its allusions to his own personal separation from Clara Wieck.

It is all very well, but I find one or two problems with it. None of it is referenced, and it appears to be mostly your personal opinion, some of it speculative. Making your deductions takes much more than your "casual glance". In your analysis you have apparently missed the same melodic figure in bars 14-17. A falling scale is a reference to a rising scale? - which rising scale? - as you say, perhaps too banal and incidental, not to mention questionable - unless it can be referenced to a reliable source. I'd encourage the restoration of a little of this material if it could be sourced to a reliable publication, particularly if it could be demonstrated (perhaps with reference to Schumann's correspondence?) that Schumann consciously quoted the theme. --RobertG ♬ talk 10:07, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is a very interesting edit, because it involves the assumption that the text under discussion cannot be "referenced". The reductio ad absurdum would be that an editor would be debarred from referring to "to be or not to be" as part of "Hamlet" unless a named secondary source had already done so. I appreciate the difficulties in this case, but this precise issue in the context of the Fantasie is important - not least because Liszt himself also quotes "An die Ferne Geliebte" unmistakeably in the Sonata he dedicated to Schumann. And given Schumann's own acknowledgement of the general meaning of the first movement of the Fantasie..... "Das sieht jeder Knarr" as an unreferenced secondary source (who is beleived to have known both Robert and Clara Schumann) once said.Delahays (talk) 09:06, 28 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You will find most of the thematic connexions to An die ferne Geliebte spelt out in Charles Rosen's The Romantic Generation and The Classical Style in the sections dealing with this work, so we can use that as a source. (Of course, it should indeed be obvious to anyone who has heard both compositions.) Double sharp (talk) 11:04, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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