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List of useful media articles to be added.

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The following is a (currently unsorted) list of useful media articles that could be added in various parts of the article:

The following is a (currently unsorted) list of secondary articles citing Ahsley:

The following is a (currently unsorted) list of sources that I can’t identify if are primary or secondary

Sources that talk about Ashley’s work in a negative context:

Reviews of Ashley’s books:

Awards Ashley has received:

Regarding citation by UN independent expert:

Regarding National Assembly testimony:

Need to find:

  • Secondary sources analysing or citing their work
  • Articles about Florence that aren’t interviews of them.

More to add to this as I find it. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:58, 9 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My primary concern right now is overuse of WP:PRIMARY sources, via interviews with Ashley. There’s a couple of notability hurdles that need to be addressed before we can consider pushing this draft for review. Accordingly we need to look at WP:NBASIC for general biographical notability, or WP:NACADEMIC for academic notability. I think we’ll have a stronger case for NACADEMIC than NBASIC, given Ashley’s work. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:00, 9 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What we really need at the moment are WP:SECONDARY sources. Anything where Ashley’s work has been reviewed, either by their peers or wider audience. Is there any reviews of Ashley’s recent book we can cite? Are there any sources, aside from their University of Toronto profile page that mentions their work being cited by the UN Independent Expert on Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity? Or their legal contributions to the Qubec National Assembly? Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:05, 9 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have added links above to the UN report and to the Natioanl Assembly hearings, but they are the official report/transcript rather than a secondary source.

Semi-protected edit request on 17 January 2024

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Change: In 2023, Ashley was one of 21 members appointed to the World Health Organization’s guideline development group concerning the health of trans and gender diverse people.[15]

To: In 2023, Ashley was one of 21 members appointed to the World Health Organization’s Guideline Development Group concerning the health of trans and gender diverse people,[15] but as of January 15, 2024, they was no longer listed as a proposed member of that group.[insert citation below]

Citation: https://cdn.who.int/media/docs/default-source/hq-hiv-hepatitis-and-stis-library/biographies_tgd-gdg_proposed_members_2024.pdf Bert Adan (talk) 12:17, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done with an explanation of why. “They was” changed to “they were” per rest of article. Thriftycat Talk • Contribs 12:29, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Suggested additions

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As I am the subject of the article, it would not be appropriate for me to make edits. I am including information below that I believe would be useful additions to the article.

Florence is a member of the Women’s Legal Education and Action Fund’s Law Program Committee (link) and of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association’s National Council (link).

The book ‘’Banning Transgender Conversion Practices: A Legal and Policy Analysis’’, discussed under ‘personal life and education’, was reviewed in the following outlets:

Florence’s masters thesis, which formed the basis for the book referenced above, was cited by the UN Independent Expert report on conversion therapy for the proposition that “Practices aimed at changing gender identity include preventing trans young people from transitioning.” See: https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/thematic-reports/ahrc4453-practices-so-called-conversion-therapy-report-independent

Florence testified before Québec’s National Assembly twice:

Florence was part of an open letter by Alberta law professors to Alberta Premier Danielle Smith raising concerns about her proposed policies on trans youth. See: https://ablawg.ca/2024/02/15/an-open-letter-to-premier-danielle-smith-re-preserving-choice-for-children-and-youth-announcement/

Flowsthatglow (talk) 13:41, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: Edit requests should be actionable, e.g. "Please add [Example sentence with source] to the end of section three". If you just meant to add some sources that other editors could consider adding to the article, you can add them to the talk page with using the COI edit template. Rusalkii (talk) 05:23, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Picture

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A picture of the subject of the article is now available on Wikimedia Commons and could be added to the page: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File%3AFlorence_Ashley_Zone_Franche.jpg&oldid=prev&diff=889355837 Flowsthatglow (talk) 18:20, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Flowsthatglows! I'm happy to add File:Florence Ashley Zone Franche.jpg or a cropped portrait version to the article. Before doing so I would like to be sure that it's available under an acceptable free content license. Because of the language gap, I can't see anything at the source to verify that the image is CC-BY 4.0. If you know for sure that Télé-Québec released the photo under this license, could you point to that information? Otherwise it may need to be removed from Wikimedia Commons; images from TV shows (even public broadcast shows) are presumed to be copyrighted, so the image might not be useable here.
If it's more convenient, you could also upload your own photo which you yourself hold the copyright to (e.g. a selfie). –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 03:04, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Done A discussion of the image's license status now exists at c:Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Florence_Ashley_Zone_Franche.jpg. Until that's resolved (hopefully by an administrator or volunteer more competent than myself at Commons' processes), I've gone ahead and added the image to the article. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 03:33, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I’ve replied to the delete request discussion and sent a PDF of the email thread confirming license status to info-commons@wikimedia.org. Long story short, I have written confirmation by the Director of operations of the company who owns the image that its license is CC BY-SA and meets the free content license criteria. Flowsthatglow (talk) 03:31, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request on 19 January 2025

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(This request is by the subject of the article.) Right at the end of the “Career” section, I would recommend adding the sentence: “Ashley was awarded a King Charles III Coronation Medal in 2025, at the nomination of Egale Canada.” Source: https://egale.ca/egale-in-action/king-charles-medal-recipients/ Flowsthatglow (talk) 19:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Sources that may be useful to editors

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{{edit COI|N}}

As I am the subject of the article, it would not be appropriate for me to make edits. Below are sources that editors may find of interest and may consider adding to the article.

Florence is a member of the Women’s Legal Education and Action Fund’s Law Program Committee (link) and of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association’s National Council (link).

The book ‘’Banning Transgender Conversion Practices: A Legal and Policy Analysis’’, discussed under ‘personal life and education’, was reviewed in the following outlets:

Florence’s masters thesis, which formed the basis for the book referenced above, was cited by the UN Independent Expert report on conversion therapy for the proposition that “Practices aimed at changing gender identity include preventing trans young people from transitioning.” See: https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/thematic-reports/ahrc4453-practices-so-called-conversion-therapy-report-independent

Florence testified before Québec’s National Assembly twice:

Florence was part of an open letter by Alberta law professors to Alberta Premier Danielle Smith raising concerns about her proposed policies on trans youth. See: https://ablawg.ca/2024/02/15/an-open-letter-to-premier-danielle-smith-re-preserving-choice-for-children-and-youth-announcement/

Florence was awarded a King Charles III Coronation Medal in 2025: https://egale.ca/egale-in-action/king-charles-medal-recipients/

Florence’s book Gender/Fucking received the Outstanding Memoir award from The Transfeminine Review in 2024: https://thetransfemininereview.com/2024/12/31/the-2024-tfr-readers-choice-awards/

Florence received a 2024 Clawbie award for their article “Parental Rights Over Transgender Youth: Furthering a Pressing and Substantial Objective” (link to article itself): https://www.clawbies.ca/2024-clawbies-canadian-law-blog-awards/

Editors may also consider adding the following article to the list of selected publications: https://lawjournal.mcgill.ca/article/genderfucking-as-a-critical-legal-methodology/ Flowsthatglow (talk) 19:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Bbb23 can you help Florence out? Knowing my editing skills I might not be allowed to. DACartman (talk) 20:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I left her a standard COI notice on her Talk page. That's all I'm interested in doing.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:41, 19 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Suggested edits

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Here are my suggested changes based on the above sources. Sideswipe9th, thoughts?

  1. Include Harvard Law Review. A review in Harvard Law Review called Banning Transgender Conversion Practices “thoughtful, thoroughly researched, and important contribution [to] the project of securing transgender health and respect.[1]
  2. Include book review. A review in Medical Law International called it "groundbreaking" and a "rhetorical tour de force".[2]
  3. Include National Magazine. National Magazine, a periodical by the Canadian Bar Association, called it "a must-read for jurists, healthcare professionals and policy folks who want to understand this critical issue in a clear, concise, yet thorough manner."[3]
  4. Exclude OHCHR report. This is a passing citation in a large document, it reads as WP:PUFFERY.[4]
  5. Maybe mention Assemblée nationale. Ashley has provided testimony to the National Assembly of Quebec on the topics of conversion therapy[5] and legal 'gender' and 'sex' markers.[6] Cite style on these could be improved.
  6. Exclude open letter. Presumably not notable.[7]
  7. Exclude medal. Ashley is one of 30,000 Canadians to receive the King Charles III Coronation Medal.[8]
  8. Include TFR award, as a review of Gender/Fucking. As a WP:BLOG, this award (one of 17+ categories) is not necessarily notable. Literary blog The Transfeminine Review called Gender/Fucking a "wonderfully subversive win for a genre typified by its historical rigidity" and awarded it "Outstanding Memoir" as part of its 2024 Reader’s Choice Awards.[9]
  9. Exclude Clawbies. WP:BLOG. Probably not notable.[10]
  10. Add "Genderfucking as a Critical Legal Methodology" to Selected Publications. "Genderfucking as a Critical Legal Methodology". McGill Law Journal. Retrieved 2025-01-20.

–RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 02:28, 20 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Levi, Jennifer; Barry, Kevin (2023-02-10). "Made to Feel Broken: Ending Conversion Practices and Saving Transgender Lives". Harvard Law Review. Retrieved 2025-01-20.
  2. ^ Sanaeikia, Rebecca (2024-03-01). "Book review: Banning Transgender Conversion Practices: A Legal and Policy Analysis". Medical Law International. 24 (1): 90–92. doi:10.1177/09685332231193957. ISSN 0968-5332.
  3. ^ "Banning transgender conversion practices: Florence Ashley's first book is an important legal and policy guide to eradicating them". nationalmagazine.ca. Retrieved 2025-01-20.
  4. ^ Madrigal-Borloz, Victor (2020-05-01). Practices of so-called "conversion therapy" (Report). Human Rights Council. A/HRC/44/53. Retrieved 2025-01-20 – via Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights.
  5. ^ "Journal des débats de la Commission des relations avec les citoyens - Assemblée nationale du Québec". www.assnat.qc.ca (in French). Retrieved 2025-01-20.
  6. ^ "Journal des débats de la Commission des institutions - Assemblée nationale du Québec". www.assnat.qc.ca (in French). Retrieved 2025-01-20.
  7. ^ Faculty Members at the University of Alberta and University of Calgary Faculties of Law (2024-02-15). "An Open Letter to Premier Danielle Smith Re: "Preserving choice for children and youth" Announcement". ABlawg. Retrieved 2025-01-20.
  8. ^ "King Charles III's Coronation Medal Recipients". Egale Canada. Retrieved 2025-01-20.
  9. ^ "The 2024 TFR Reader's Choice Awards". The Transfeminine Review. 2024-12-31. Retrieved 2025-01-20.
  10. ^ "2024 Clawbies: Canadian Law Blog Awards". Clawbies.ca. 2024-12-31. Retrieved 2025-01-20.

Pronoun mention

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I personally disagree with the idea that their pronouns should be stated in the article. I checked the National Magazine source and, although it is stated and would thus appear to be relevant enough to be mentioned in the article, it seems instead that the sentence in the source is simply the standard one that news outlets include nowadays when someone uses non he/she pronouns. I think the simple use of the pronouns in the prose is suitable.

More broadly, however, if someone can produce a separate Wiki article where the pronouns are mentioned in the prose, I will change my view. The pronouns of Demi Lovato (first famous they/them user whom I could remember) are mentioned in their article, but that was a whole news event that was more notable, and they use both she/her and they/them pronouns, which is also noted. Same for Sam Smith (second person). I then checked a few of the people at Category:Non-binary scholars and academics and none of them had their pronouns mentioned in the prose beyond them simply being used.

Maybe an infobox could be added with the information? Doesn't seem like Template:Infobox academic has pronouns though, and again, not consistent with other articles.

The argument could be made that they should be added to promote visibility, but I think that would somewhat de-normalize the use of the pronouns. (To be fair, both of those points do depend on the assumption that these pronouns should be made more visible/normalized, and some, though not I, may disagree.)

Whatever happens here, I believe that the decision should apply more broadly.

Pinging @Tamzin, @Tubend, not sure about any other discussion participants.

JuxtaposedJacob (talk) | :) | he/him | 06:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In my experience most people who take pronouns other than what one might expect based on appearance (chiefly they/them or counterintuitive binary pronouns like F1NN5TER) have it mentioned in their article. See Special:Search/~"they/them pronouns".
Tubend, incidentally, is LTA Architect134, but I'll let someone else block him. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe|🤷) 07:05, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, that works. Émile P. Torres does mention it outright. I am glad that the sentence is not in the lead, per MOS:GENDERID.
(Also found some interesting stuff by searching for "pronoun" in the archives of Template talk:Infobox person' consensus was obviously against, as there is no pronoun field currently.)
Thanks for chatting, have a good evening!
JuxtaposedJacob (talk) | :) | he/him | 07:20, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:GENDERID recommends:

Where a person's gender may come as a surprise, explain it on first occurrence, without overemphasis.

My preferred style is to include an explanatory footnote on the first use of a pronoun. It's useful to have citations verifying a subject's pronouns. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 10:44, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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