Talk:J. Delano Ellis

Apostolic Succession

This article refers to J. Delano Ellis as "bishop" and "prelate," so it should be noted that he lacks valid apostolic succession despite his claims to that effect. In his book, The Bishopric: A Handbook on Creating Episcopacy in the African-American Pentecostal Church (pp. 77-80), he lays out his claimed succession through the Methodist Episcopal Church to the Church of England and ultimately back to the Roman Catholic Church. His own demonstration only proves, however, that he is putting forth a false claim based on the tradition of apostolic succession.

First, we need some background. Ellis' consecrator was William David Charles Williams, who claimed to be a bishop within the Church of God in Christ. The "COGIC" bishops claim apostolic succession from Charles Harrison Mason, who had been elected "apostle" by his own congregation (no apostolic succession). Williams had two co-consecrators: namely, Carl Edward Williams and Reuben Timothy Jones. Both men were "bishops" in COGIC and thus had no valid apostolic succession, but they had been ordained within the "Holy Orders" in the Methodist Episcopal Church. It is pointed out in The Bishopric that Jones was "consecrated" by Fred Pierce Corson, an elected Methodist "bishop" with no valid apostolic succession. Ellis uses this fact to trace his line back to John Wesley and thus back to the Church of England. Wesley had never been a bishop, so he had no line of apostolic succession to pass on to begin with.

W.D.C. Williams, C.E. Williams, and R.T. Jones did not possess a valid line of apostolic succession to convey to J. Delano Ellis, or any of his compatriots. They all carry the title of "bishop" outside of the churches that possess valid apostolic succession. These Pentecostal and Baptist "bishops" go so far as to adopt Roman Catholic and Anglican attire that is reserved for true bishops by canon law, so it is important that it is stressed that they are outside of all lines of apostolic succession. None of them have even been properly ordained as priests in a valid line of apostolic succession, so they have not even met the most basic requirement of being elevated to the true episcopacy. If J. Delano Ellis, or any of his compatriots, joined one of the churches with valid apostolic succession, they would have to start from square one—deacon.

The fact that J. Delano Ellis is the head of the "Joint College of African-American Pentecostal Bishops" should make all of this noteworthy. This is especially true as Ellis claims in his own book that he possesses valid apostolic succession and then demonstrates why he does not. This is also important because there are websites where "bishops" of Ellis' and his compatriots' making rant about how vital apostolic succession is to any real bishop: Here is an example. Their own false claims and actions should make this all noteworthy enough for inclusion in the article. If I knew more about Wikipedia's policies, I would attempt the addition. As I don't, however, I will leave it to someone more versed in such matters.98.239.7.135 (talk) 15:36, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Apostolic succession is a method whereby Christian ministry is held to be passed-on via a continuous succession, which has usually been associated with a claim that the succession is through a series of bishops, by laying-on of hands of bishops previously consecrated within the apostolic succession. For ease of reference, I will term this "episcopal apostolic succession", so as to distinguish it from lineages that go through presbyters, or through clergy in jurisdictions that would, in effect, regard all their ordained ministers as being bishop-presbyters.

Not all churches draw a distinction between bishops and presbyters. The wikipage on apostolic succession cites Thos Griffiths ("The principles of Theology", Church Book Room Press, 1963, p 357) as saying that the New Testament uses 'bishop' and 'presbyter' as alternative names for the same office. I seem to remember that the writer on church history JWC Wand (a past Church of England bishop of London) took this same view. The 1833 'Declaration of Faith and Church Order' issued by the Congregational Union of England & Wales uses 'bishop' and 'pastor' as synonyms, in that it declares that the only officers placed by the Apostles over individual churches 'are the bishops or pastors and the deacons'. In other words, according to this theory, to be minister of a local church is to be its bishop-pastor.

Even where the theory of the three-fold ministry of bishops, presbyters and deacons is taught/held, there may have been some ancient examples where, exceptionally, the apostolic succession was at times passed-on through presbyters, as distinct from there being an un-broken succession of bishops. To have ordination by bishops as normal practice, and succession from bishop to bishop as normal practice, is not quite the same as saying that episcopal ordination is the only possible authentic form of ordination, nor as saying that apostolic succession from bishop to bishop is the only possible authentic form of apostolic succession.

It is recorded that Wesley considered himself 'a scriptural episcopos as much as any man in England or in Europe' ("Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological and Ecclesiastical Literature" Vol 6, quoted at Ref 115 on the wikipage for apostolic succession) and, furthermore, it is said that for two centuries the ancient church at Alexandria passed-on the succession through a sequence of presbyters (see the wikipage on apostolic succession, just mentioned above).

The question as to whether there is an unbroken espiscopal succession through Wesley to Coke and Asbury and thus to the Methodist Episcopal Church is a debatable point, which no-one can prove one way or the other, as it cannot be proven whether or not Bishop Erasmus of Arcadia consecrated Wesley as a bishop.

Even if Wesley was consecrated by Erasmus, the succession in the latter part of the 20th century from the Methodist Episcopal Church to DC Williams, CW Williams and RT Jones seems not to be an 'episcopal' succession, as Reader 98.239.7.135 says (see above writing on 23 Feb 2010), (--- unless someone has information that Ellis does not mention in his book, and that this Reader was un-aware of).

So, the 'Western' stream cited by Ellis seems to be a least a presbyteral lineage. But (based on the absence of information on the matter in Ellis's book, and on the information given on 23 Feb 2010 by Reader 98.239.7.135), it seems clear that the lineage cited is not an un-broken episcopal lineage.

Whether a presbyteral lineage can be regarded as an authentic apostolic succession lineage will depend upon what view one takes about the question of whether bishops and presbyters are essentially the same or different, and also on what view one takes as to whether un-broken episcopal succession is an essential characteristic for an authentic succession.

However, in the case of J. Delano Ellis, such points are of merely academic interest, in that Ellis has many lineages other than the 'Western' lineage through Wesley and Walker, Walker and Jones. Ellis does not need to rely at all upon any lineage via Wesley.

In his book, Ellis cites an 'Eastern' stream from the Syro-Chaldean church. He also cites a Slavonic lineage (though he does not detail it), and a Russian/Ukrainian lineage (which again he does not detail). There is enough data available on the Internet to trace these lineages if one takes the time to do it. In addition to all this, there are very many other lineages that converge in the person of Hugh George de Willmott Newman, which Ellis could have mentioned, though he does not do so. Hugh George de Willmott Newman is one of the bishops listed by Ellis in the line of succession. He is listed on page 91 in the 2003 edition of Ellis's book. For more detail, see the wikipage on Hugh George de Willmott Newman.

I believe there is also a line from the Church of Cyprus (an autocephalous Greek church in the Orthodox tradition) via Archbishop Makarios (sometime president of Cyprus) to Bishop Gaines who consecrated Bishop 'Bert' (Bertram) Schlossberg who consecrated Bishop Robert Burgess. Bishop Burgess (acting under a mandate from Schlossberg) passed on the succession to Ellis and to the bishops of the United Pentecostal Churches of Christ.

I hope the above comments and explanations may be helpful to Reader 98.239.7.135, and to any others who may have had similar questions.

The wikipage on Bishop Ellis is now expanded to indicate the lineages that can be cited, and there is now a link to Hugh George de Willmott Newman and to ecumenical apostolic succession.

For information and comment about which churches recognise various forms of succession, see the wikipage on apostolic succession. Diakonias (talk) 17:43, 17 February 2014 (UTC).

Regarding the removal of information on a public figure

On September 22, 2020 an edit war ensued between administrative staff, another contributor, and I pertaining to restoring referenced information which was removed by the said contributor who shall not be named in an effort to focus on this important matter (though of course, they are free to comment whenever they are able to). The information removed pertained to rescued news articles regarding the certification (but not ordination or consecration, as evident in the citation) of a homosexual bishop named O.C. Allen, who leads the Vision Church of Atlanta, Georgia. Other information removed pertained to J. Delano Ellis being a freemason. From the discussions held on numerous discussion pages—from administrative noticeboards to personal discussion pages—the reasoning found behind this appeared to be personal. Thus, as a result of the previous event I would like to clarify that as J. Delano Ellis is a public figure, and when citations are involved it is best to leave them within the article, whether it seems to glorify or degrade. According to the linked information, "If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it." - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 15:19, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 October 2020

Please remove the line requested below as Bishop O.C. Allen was not admitted to the College of Bishops under J. Delano Ellis leadership: The Joint College of Bishops also teaches a five-fold ministry. J. Delano Ellis and the Joint College of African-American Pentecostal Bishops denounced Carlton Pearson as a heretic for teaching Christian universalism.[30][31][32] Under Ellis's administration, the Joint College of Bishops also admitted and certified gay bishop O.C. Allen of the Vision Church of Atlanta in 2012.[33][34][35][36] GoVaughn (talk) 18:40, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The statement in the article appears reasonably well-sourced. Any request to remove it should be accompanied by sources at least as reliable. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 22:52, 8 October 2020 (UTC)