Talk:Jeanette MacDonald

Biography assessment rating comment

WikiProject Biography Assessment

Could be a B with a neutral/encyclopedic tone throughout.

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 23:44, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

She was called the Iron Butterfly. The nickname was coined around the time she was filming "San Francisco" (1936). Taken from the book titled Hollywood Diva by Edward Baron Turk. Moviebuff37 (talk) 01:37, 27 October 2009 (UTC)Moviebuff37

iron butterfly nickname?

Iron Butterfly (disambiguation) claims: "A nickname for the 1930s movie musical star Jeanette Macdonald." Is that true or false? It shouldn't be on one and not the other. --Rajah (talk) 15:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Confirmed by Maurice Chevalier: "I was not surprised when I later heard her referred to as The Iron Butterfly..." Valetude (talk) 15:06, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

References

MacDonald/Eddy relationship

Please Wikipedia, stick with the facts and not the hearsay or gossip. The entry is full of unsubstantiated documentation and is being entered by supporters of Sharon Rich who has authored books that claims MacDonald and Eddy had this wonderful, torrid affair for 30+ years. Rich and her supporters have been relentless. Rich is not a reliable source. I have been in contact with reliable sources such as the president of the original Jeanette MacDonald International Fan Club that was founded in 1937. During my conversations with the president of the fan club (appointed by MacDonald herself before she died)after Rich's book was published, she assured me of several things. One is very important. Sharon Rich could not have spoken with MacDonald's sister Blossom Rock at the time she claims she did. Rock had had a stroke and was unable to speak at that time. Wikipedia should be a source that sticks to the facts, not hearsay. MacDonald and Gene Raymond were married from 1937 until her death in 1965. He was there with her when she died. Whether or not their marriage was ideal, Wikipedia should be devoted to the facts, not gossip. I am disgusted that the memory of MacDonald/Raymond/Eddy and their loved ones have to be portrayed in this manner. Rich's book itself is sad. MacDonald was way too intelligent of a woman to have lived her life as Rich portrays it. Take out the hearsay and gossip and keep to the facts. Moviebuff37 (talk) 01:27, 27 October 2009 (UTC)Moviebuff37 Moviebuff37 (talk) 01:26, 27 October 2009 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by Moviebuff37 (talk • contribs) 00:59, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

207.58.192.123 has made edits that indicate a more romantic relationship between MacDonald and Eddy. The article previously stated that their relationship was platonic and they had little social contact. I don't know which is correct, but it seems some references and popular consensus would be in order. MarianKroy (talk) 14:03, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you Marian. I think it's possible to include different points of view within an article, even potentially conflicting comments, but they must be attributed, and one of the main problems with this article is the almost complete absence of inline citations. The article could be a work of fiction as there is nothing to substantiate most of what is written. I noted this in the "to do" list almost two years ago - no improvement, in fact no effort whatsoever to address this problem. Aside from this, I think that the article has a fairly good structure, and a lot of potential, though I question its objectivity. It seems that whoever is adding information is not actually reading what already exists. For example there are now two sections dealing with her death. There is also an excess of sugary sentiment in some places, and I haven't read through the history to see when it was introduced - for example "The love story of Jeanette and Gene Raymond is far more romantic than any Hollywood writer could ever have concocted." Lovely for a 1938 fan magazine, but not at all appropriate 2008 version of an online encyclopedia. In the discussion of her death, she is twice in a single paragraph referred to as "beloved Jeanette". MacDonald's many virtues are listed a little too freely and uncritically too. Rossrs (talk) 14:37, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll go through when I have more time and remove some of the hearts and flowers. It's not my intention to just complain without becoming involved. Rossrs (talk) 14:45, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Rossrs. The articles on Wikipedia related to English-language operetta (other than G&S) are basically orphans. The opera project doesn't want to deal with them, the musicals project claims lack of expertise, and the film project.... well. I did some work on the Victor Herbert articles and some others, but I just don't have time to fix the whole genre by myself. Fortunately, Marian has been putting in some excellent work. I will be very, very grateful to anyone who can do some research and add some citations. All the best, -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:09, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone else think the Epilogue is unnecessary and gratuitously sappy? MarianKroy (talk) 19:32, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I do. If obituaries made sappy comments about MacDonald such comments would be relevant, sappy or not, but this comment is about the songs. We know that MacDonald performed the songs but there's no link to her, and no context. Even so, a comment about MacDonald would be better placed in the section that mentions her death. An "epilogue" section is gratuitous in my opinion. Rossrs (talk) 22:11, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I killed it. It wasn't about her interpretation of the songs or her legacy; it was just the writer's opinion about works in which she performed. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:56, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

MarionKroy, in answer to your question as to "which version is correct," there is substantial documentation to substantiate claims of a romance between MacDonald and Eddy...we are talking sources like family (sister, cousins), friends, co-stars (from movies, opera, theater), ex-lovers, stalker fans who caught them together at various times over the years. They have been quoted and sourced in magazines, interviews and books (and a forthcoming documentary). Some of these sources include Richard C. Halverson (MacDonald's butler/chauffeur in 1937-38) opera stars Theodor Uppman and Rise Stevens, among other well-respected celebrities. So yes, it is commonly accepted that they had a complicated off-screen relationship. Last year Joanne Woodward frankly discussed the affair at a NYC film MacDonald/Eddy screening that she hosted/narrated. Robert Osborne mentioned it in an article he wrote for TCM's Program Guide. However, there is a faction that promotes "The love story of Jeanette and Gene Raymond" as Rossrs noted above. This is despite MacDonald's own published autobiography in which she discusses marital problems, separations and divorce discussions in the post WWII period until almost the end of the book. There are also MacDonald's hundreds of pages of letters to Irving Stone (an early boyfriend), reproduced and published in facsimile form, in which she mentions dating Eddy. If folks want to deny and ignore the preponderance of documentation... well, what can one do. It reminds me of the furor when Christina Crawford first outed her mother as "Mommy Dearest" or Judy Lewis outed her father as Clark Gable. Also, MarionKroy, there are dozens of published candid photos of MacDonald and Eddy taken at parties and other events throughout every decade of their lives, in response to those who say "they had little social contact."

Rossrs, you know I have periodically worked on this article but recently have been unable to keep up much with the "sugary sentiment" issues that periodically are added. I'm also not well-versed on the recent Wikipedia formatting updates and tweaks but I'll try to catch up a bit and go through and add inline citations (for sources I know) over the next few days. Is it possible/allowable to post in the article a photo of a page reproduction from a book, showing MacDonald's hand-written comments that might help put the matter to rest? -- maceddy (talk) 01:15, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Despite my fairly strong criticism, I do think this article contains much that is very good. It needs some work, but that's true of most articles. As for the reproduction, I see no reason why a fair use claim couldn't be made for its inclusion. Perhaps you could upload it, and then we can address the fair use rationale for it. Rossrs (talk) 14:47, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, maceddy, for that perspective on MacDonald and Eddy. I'm not that familiar with their work or relationship, and I appreciate your researched knowledge. MarianKroy (talk) 19:39, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Article in Newjerseynewsroom.com

• Wikipedia publishes lies and false information by Warren Borroson, newjerseynewsroom.com

I offer this not as a reliable source but as an indication of a controversy that has exceeded the bounds of Wikipedia. I have no opinion on the facts because I don't know them. --TS 21:49, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

WP: Women's History Assessment Commentary

The article was assessed C-class for lack of in-line citations. Boneyard90 (talk) 00:14, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Sweethearts, and The Iron Butterfly

I note that Dorothy Parker is credited as the writer of a 'storyline' for this movie. Please see S.J. Perelman's 'Three Little Photoplays And How They Grew' in The Last Laugh (Simon and Schuster, 1981. ISBN 0671425153). Apart from being one of the English-speaking world's premier humorists, Perelman also wrote scripts for the Marx Brothers, and for a host of B-grade movies. He also won an Academy Award for his work on Mike Todd's Around the World in 80 Days.

Perelman and his wife Laura (who was heavily pregnant at the time), were the first writers assigned to work on the screenplay for the movie 'Sweethearts', having been 'tricked', Perelman claims, into working with 'The Iron Butterfly' (as MacDonald was called among Hollywood insiders) and 'The Singing Capon' (as Nelson Eddy was called by the same people). Wikipedia tells us, 'a capon is a rooster or cockerel that has been castrated to improve the quality of its flesh for food.' Neither star appears to have been popular off-screen.

The producer of 'Sweethearts' was Hunt Stromberg, and if Perelman's account of this project can be trusted, the (new) storyline was chiefly the work of Stromberg, not Parker. Half-way through the assignment, Laura Perelman left to await the imminent birth of their child. She was replaced by Alan Campbell and Dorothy Parker who, like the Perelmans, were another husband-and-wife Hollywood script-writing team, and like the Perelmans and many other Hollywood scribes, were talented Eastern writers present in Hollywood only for the money, and deeply contemptuous of Hollywood culture, and the material they were employed to transform into screenplays.

Perelman's description of the 'Sweethearts' story-line conferences makes it clear that Parker, like the Perelmans, detested the assignment, and paid little attention to the proceedings, absorbing herself in knitting 'a gray artifact seven feet long that looked like a stair-runner'. Doubtless, Parker's name was used on the movie's credits for the sake of prestige, and attracted the most attention, but she was only, and a reluctant, one-fifth of the 'Sweethearts' work-force. Bluedawe 11:06, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Gold Records

I note the use of the term "gold record" in at least a couple of places in this article as applied to best-selling records made before 1942. I don't argue against that MacDonald's records were best-sellers; her album with Nelson Eddy, "Favorites in Hi-Fi" in 1959 certainly was a best-seller and may have been certified gold as an LP. But there were no "gold records" of any kind before 1942, the first one being "Chattanooga Choo Choo" by Glenn Miller that year. Can we just say that these pre-1942 Jeanette MacDonald records were best-sellers, or possibly even ask for a citation on these points? I am an advanced collector of 78 rpm records, and I admit I seldom see Jeanette on 78s; she is far more common on LPs.Pinikadia 16:08, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Her birthplace

She was actually born in Scotland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samwat57 (talk • contribs) 20:49, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Samwat57 IMBD states Philadelphia/ Pennsylvania/ USA, but I feel like you're deliberately being disruptive. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 20:56, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

IMDb isn't a reliable source, but all other sources I can find online state she was born in Pennsylvania. A strong source stating she was born in Scotland would need to be found for the information to be included, but even then both places of birth with the associated conflicting reliable sources would need to be in the article.--Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 21:13, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Date of birth

Her 4-time co-star Maurice Chevalier said of her: “She is a very sweet and talented girl, about twelve years younger than I am, though she has always professed to being even younger than that.”

Twelve years younger than Chevalier would put her birth year at 1900. Valetude (talk) 14:58, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

References