Talk:Maria Einsmann

Maria Einsmann is currently a Culture, sociology and psychology good article nominee. Nominated by —Kusma (talk) at 23:50, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

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Short description: German woman who lived as a man for 12 years to obtain better jobs

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Did you know nomination

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Article history

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... that Maria Einsmann lived under the identity of her husband Josef for 12 years and was only discovered after a work accident? Source: Weickart, p. 5
- ALT1: ... that when Maria Einsmann registered the births of her partner Helene Müller's two children, she claimed to be her own husband Josef? Source: Weickart, p. 5
- ALT2: ... that experts at the trial of Maria Einsmann disagreed on whether Einsmann was cross-dressing out of compulsion or for financial reasons? Source: See pp. 120–121 of the MVZ source, accessible e.g. here
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Relations (philosophy)
- Comment: Improvements and better hook ideas very welcome!

Created by Kusma (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 59 past nominations.

—Kusma (talk) 21:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC).[reply]

Recent, long, comprehensive, well-sourced, and very attention-grabbing. This is true DYK material, Kusma. All three hooks are fantastic, but what drew me in was ALT1. If I were to suggest a hook, it would be:
ALT3 ... that in 1932 Maria Einsmann won the respect of both press and court after ~~fraudulently~~ living as a man for 12 years to provide for her female partner and their daughters?
Or something along these lines because it is a heart-warming detail. But this, if you like it, would have to be approved by someone else. Surtsicna (talk) 12:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you Surtsicna! The only fraud was registering the daughters, "living as a man" was not technically illegal. —Kusma (talk) 12:31, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Was assuming the identity of her husband not fraudulent? Surtsicna (talk) 12:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Using his social security card probably was, but the only way that "assuming the identity" was covered in the trial was that Einsmann was in minor trouble for serving as witness (i.e. best man) in a civil wedding ceremony (but I haven't added that to the article so far). —Kusma (talk) 12:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Wow. This article just keeps on giving. I have struck the word "fraudulently". I realize the hook works just as well without it. Surtsicna (talk) 12:49, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think that works, but you're probably right that ALT1 would perform best. —Kusma (talk) 13:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Kusma, I'm unable to find where the article calls Müller Einsmann's partner. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:19, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@AirshipJungleman29: that is a simplification for the hook ("the female friend she lived with" would be more accurate). I do have a source that calls her "partner" (the PDF linked here) but perhaps it is better to avoid it to be more consistent with the rest of the article. We could go for "flatmate" or just go with "Helene Müller" without qualification? —Kusma (talk) 16:08, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

So to make this explicit:

ALT1a: ... that when Maria Einsmann registered the births of her flatmate Helene Müller's two children, she claimed to be her own husband Josef?
ALT1b: ... that when Maria Einsmann registered the births of Helene Müller's two children, she claimed to be her own husband Josef?

@AirshipJungleman29, Surtsicna: thoughts? —Kusma (talk) 07:39, 25 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The hook is much weaker if Müller is not described at all, so either "partner" or "flatmate" works for me. "Girlfriend" might be even be best. I think placing this in the 1920s/1930s would make it even more interesting. Surtsicna (talk) 16:18, 28 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I would really like to avoid using words that imply they had a romantic relationship. That can be the reader's conclusion upon reading the story, but it should be not in wikivoice. At a different place in the article, I have used "companion" to translate the sources's Lebensgefährtin. So here are new versions:

ALT1c: ... that when Maria Einsmann registered the births of her companion Helene Müller's two children, she claimed to be her own husband Josef?
ALT1d: ... that when Maria Einsmann registered the births of her companion Helene Müller's two children in 1921 and 1930, she claimed to be her own husband Josef?

How about these @AirshipJungleman29, Surtsicna?

"Girlfriend" does not imply a romantic relationship. "Female friend" is a common meaning (primary meaning listed by Merriam-Webster). I am fine with "companion" too. Surtsicna (talk) 13:03, 29 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I thought more about ALT3, and in addition to "partner" which would need to be replaced by something occurring in the article like "companion" (as AirshipJungleman29 correctly noted), strictly speaking, the "providing" for Helene and the children is a slight interpretation of the facts and not fully covered by the article. I think it is best not to go with it. I have struck a few hook suggestions that have been superseded in the discussion; Surtsicna, do you think you can tick-approve the remaining hooks? —Kusma (talk) 21:41, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Of course. All of them are splendid. Surtsicna (talk) 22:25, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]