Talk:Operation Dawn of Freedom

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WARNING: ACTIVE COMMUNITY SANCTIONS

The article Operation Dawn of Freedom, along with other pages relating to the Syrian Civil War and ISIL, is designated by the community as a contentious topic. The current restrictions are:

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sna and turkey

@Ecrusized Would it count as original research for adding Turkey to combatants, if the source I listed were ones that described the sna as an auxiliary army of the Turkish Armed Forces and Turkish mercenaries? Technically they don't refer to the sna in this current campaign but... come on, right? It's the sna.. Genabab (talk) 23:02, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's called synth and its a form of original research. Ecrusized (talk) 23:05, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is now a source so i added it :D Genabab (talk) 01:12, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Genabab: There needs to be evidence before any side can be added as a belligerent to an infobox. Claims and verbal support made by officials does not indicate military involvement. Twitter is also unreliable. Just to give you an example of some things that would qualify for inclusion, Turkey would have to conduct artillery or air strikes on SAA or SDF positions in support of the SNA, and it would have to be consistent enough to materialize for support. (As in, out of the ordinary shelling that takes place regularly in this war). Ecrusized (talk) 10:19, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

> Claims and verbal support made by officials does not indicate military involvement.

@Ecrusized This was already accounted for by the edit that said syrian claim. Although I'm not the one who made that edit. similar point for al-Julani. The source was just reporting that the government said he was killed. Not that he was.

> Twitter is also unreliable.

Uhh... ok? I don't remember citing Twitter so I'm not sure why you're bringing this up Genabab (talk) 12:27, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Twitter was cited as a source for Turkish Land Army involvement, you may not have been the one to add it, I didn't check but I reverted that one as well. Also, just because something has been reported or claimed doesn't necessitate its inclusion if it cannot be verified. See WP:ONUS. Ecrusized (talk) 13:22, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Ecrusized

Would this count as a source? https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/11/30/syrian-rebel-forces-take-aleppo-in-lightning-offensive/

“The rebel offensive could not have taken place without Ankara’s explicit permission. Since 2016, Turkey assumed a de facto role of patronizing a number of jihadi-Salafist extremist militias intent on firstly bringing down the Assad regime, and later employed as fighters to threaten and target SDF forces. Many of the Turkish backed militias are ISIS remnants. Following the fall of Aleppo, it is unlikely these militia groups will simply sit tight. Larger questions now loom over whether SDF fighters, as well as US forces in Syria, will also be targeted by them.” — Sinan Ciddi, Senior Fellow" Genabab (talk) 01:25, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That seems to be indicating a Turkish greenlight for the rebels to launch the operation. There hasn't been any Turkish military involvement so far. Turkey has even denied minor involvement in the "Operation Dawn of Freedom" saying:

"Turkish Armed Forces was not involved in the “Operation Dawn of Freedom” in Syria at any stage, and did not take any action regarding the mines in the area."[1] Ecrusized (talk) 09:39, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

At the verry least this justifies saying that they are supported by turkey? Every source on the sna also says that they are Turkey-backed.

Also i thought we can't cite twitter ?_? Genabab (talk) 10:35, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, international sources suggest that the operation is backed by Turkey, but there's no solid evidence whatsoever and that's a pure assumption. Turkish FM Hakan Fidan had already stated that Turkey has no involvement in the Aleppo offensive[1][2][3][4][5][6] - considering that there's no present evidence of Turkish military activity/support to the Operation Dawn of Freedom, it makes no sense to add Turkey as a belligerent. AscendencyXXIV (talk) 01:09, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@AscendencyXXIVI agree there is no reason to add Turkey as a belligerent and am not advocating for that anymore, but my recent edit was to put Turkey in a "supported by" position, which you do say international sources are in agreement over, which is what we have to go with Genabab (talk) 22:52, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Genabab: Your latest edit adding Turkey to the infobox did not cite a single reference. Ecrusized (talk) 16:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

the citations were in the body. I do remember some infobokses doing similar things, so I thought it'd be alright.

I guess now would be a good time to ask if those sources suggest support? Genabab (talk) 22:50, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 December 2024

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SDF casualty figures need to be changed to 3 ^[1] Donbarzinitut (talk) 03:14, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Already done: Outdated request. Aviationwikiflight (talk) 16:09, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ https://hawarnews.com/en/3-sdf-fighters-martyred-in-response-to-attacks-by-turkish-occupation-mercenaries

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 December 2024

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Capture of Kuweires airbase

At the morning of December 1 2024, SNA forces captured the Kuweires airbase, along with the towns as-Safirah and Khanasir.^[1]^[2] A few hours later, videos put on circulation by opposition-aligned media suggested that SNA forces have seized many military equipment from the sudden offensive on the Syrian Arab Army. The opposition seizure includes Pantsir S-1 air defense system^[3], at least eleven L-39 Albatros jets^[4], and one Mil-Mi 8 helicopter.^[4]

I was going to add a whole section for the Capture of Kuweires airbase, along with many recent sources, but the page now suddenly has extended protection and I cannot make changes as I do not have 500 edits. I would be happy if you adjusted the changes. Thanks! AscendencyXXIV (talk) 03:19, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Cite error: The named reference SOHR1DecCapture" was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ "Syrian rebels take over Kuweires military airport in Aleppo area - report". The Jerusalem Post | JPost.com. 2024-12-01. Retrieved 2024-12-02.
^ Security, Ellie Cook; Reporter, Defense (2024-12-01). "Syrian rebels capture Russian Pantsir system: Reports". Newsweek. Retrieved 2024-12-02.
^ ^a ^b GDC (2024-12-01). "Syrian Rebels Capture Russian Pantsir System, Helicopter, L-39 Albatros Aircraft and Syrian Army General Malik Hassan Muhaybar". Global Defense Corp. Retrieved 2024-12-02.

Merge with Northwestern Syria offensive (2024)

It serves no different purpose than the main article. This article just exists for the sake of it and it would be best to merge them and include "Operation Dawn of Freedom" as alternate name in the lede. Theofunny (talk) 18:41, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Article shows no signs of needing to be separate. Onegreatjoke (talk) 22:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. It's a distinct phase of the offensive and should remain separate. David O. Johnson (talk) 21:09, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, the article title "2024 Syrian opposition offensives" is inclusive enough and both operations are interlinked in so many places. RamiPat (talk) 15:21, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, merging everything into one mega article is getting confusing, HTS is not involved. Braganza (talk) 20:21, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Should I delete this topic, it was before that article was renamed. Theofunny (talk) 06:25, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, that article is about the fall of the Syrian government. This one is about the attack on SDF by the Turkish-backed SNA. Ecrusized (talk) 20:33, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

.

Map

@Ecrusized: maybe include other advances of SNA too, like Tell Rifaat or Dayr Hafir Braganza (talk) 20:22, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I outlined Tell Rifaat, which was captured before the fall of the government. It's not clearly where else SNA has fought SDF after SDF briefly captured the areas left by the government. Ecrusized (talk) 20:25, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Braganza: I see that you reverted the new map. Please note that I will not be updating the file File:Northwestern Syria offensive (2024).jpg, as its scope covering the fighting between pro-government and opposition forces have ended. If you want to show the fighting before December 8th, you can add both of them. Ecrusized (talk) 20:35, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

About war crime

It's it is incompatible with the policy of impartiality to give this article the title of a war crime, the accuracy of which is not certain. Look. This article shouldn't be a propaganda tool. Not every air strike is a massacre. It must be justified with solid sources. For example, while Turkey and the PKK are fighting, the PKK uses civilian children and then makes propaganda saying that the Turkish soldiers attacked the children. The PKK has close ties with the YPG-SDF and needs objective evidence to support that this is not propaganda.-- Sabri76'^talk 18:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sabri76: proposal: we include both the accusations against SDF but also the reports but about SDF surpressing pro-SNA/anti-SDF protests [2] Braganza (talk) 09:59, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Braganza:, Thank you very much for your proposal to ensure neutrality. However, Turkish news source you shared is far from being proof that both sides committed a war crime in this operation. Turkey may have accidentally killed civilians while bombing, or the SDF-YPG may have suppressed protests against them by shooting a few of them. If we can conclude that these events are happening systematically on both sides, we can create a title of "war crime". It is too early for such a title.--Sabri76'^talk 10:17, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

maybe "accusations of war crimes"? Braganza (talk) 10:22, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's acceptable for both sides but we need reliable sources. However we shouldn't give reference to "2024 Al-Mustariha massacre" page because noteworthy and neutrality of the article is disputable.--Sabri76'^talk 11:46, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Title + lead

Are there sources to tell us whether the name Operation Dawn of Freedom covers the whole range of Turkey/SNA attacks/invasion of Rojava/AANES in late 2024, or only the Manbij invasion? We now also have the 2024 Kobani offensive, and apart from WP:CRYSTAL, we don't know how much further this will continue. The lead could probably be extended, or else a WP:RM considered. Boud (talk) 14:18, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Casualties problem

The casualties in total for Turk-SNA it’s not 222 it’s +500 Bokak99 (talk) 17:44, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

no sources for this Braganza (talk) 09:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Counteroffensive

@Noble Attempt, Des Vallee, Ecrusized, David O. Johnson, and Vbbanaz05: so what do we do with the counteroffensive in Mabij, do we consider it part of it, should we create a new article ect. Braganza (talk) 17:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should add an additional bullet point under the “territorial changes” section that mentions the counteroffensive. LordOfWalruses (talk) 17:26, 24 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No that would be part of East Aleppo offensive (2024). Des Vallee (talk) 03:53, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

it was created after i made this comment Braganza (talk) 07:33, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see. Des Vallee (talk) 08:38, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good. Vbbanaz05 (talk) 13:49, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 25 December 2024

It has been proposed in this section that Operation Dawn of Freedom be renamed and moved to Northeastern Syria offensive (2024 – present).

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly.

Links: current log • target log • direct move

Operation Dawn of Freedom → Northeastern Syria offensive (2024 – present) – Current title, Operation Dawn of Freedom is non-descriptive and Orwellian, similar to Operation Peace Spring, Operation Peace for Galilee and Operation Iraqi Freedom. Suggested title describes the ongoing clashes about where they are and how long they've been happening for. Ecrusized (talk) 14:36, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would support this minus the - present, that offensive is over and sources describe it as such. Des Vallee (talk) 16:11, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

against it is just a little bit to the east of the "Northwestern Syria offensive (2024)" but still clearly in the North Western part of Syria Braganza (talk) 07:43, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

even though i agree with you, i think the current title is still the best to make clear what this article is about since HTS is not involved in it which would become unclear if you take geographical terms. Braganza (talk) 07:46, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttps://hawarnews.com/en/3-sdf-fighters-martyred-in-response-to-attacks-by-turkish-occupation-mercenaries

[SOHR1DecCapture"-2] Cite error: The named reference SOHR1DecCapture" was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[3] "Syrian rebels take over Kuweires military airport in Aleppo area - report". The Jerusalem Post | JPost.com. 2024-12-01. Retrieved 2024-12-02.

[4] Security, Ellie Cook; Reporter, Defense (2024-12-01). "Syrian rebels capture Russian Pantsir system: Reports". Newsweek. Retrieved 2024-12-02.

[:0-5] GDC (2024-12-01). "Syrian Rebels Capture Russian Pantsir System, Helicopter, L-39 Albatros Aircraft and Syrian Army General Malik Hassan Muhaybar". Global Defense Corp. Retrieved 2024-12-02.

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