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This article uses Matthew Gibney work with the reference "Immigration and asylum : from 1900 to the present : Gibney, Matthew J : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive" but if you read it you will see he is not talking only about the ottoman empire but also about russia, india, pakistan up until 1947. Therefore saying Matthew Gibney said millions died during the exchange is false information and an exageration. 2A01:E34:EC95:6010:F51D:5425:B996:D233 (talk) 09:19, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Crimes against humanity is a specific legal concept. In order to be included in the category, the event (s) must have been prosecuted as a crime against humanity, or at a bare minimum be described as such by most reliable sources. Most of the articles that were formerly in this category did not mention crimes against humanity at all, and the inclusion of the category was purely original research. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 07:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the same page when translated to Turkish refers to the persecution which took place as massacres (within the context of a genocide) and such a title should be also reflected upon the English version of the page as to respect Wikipedia’s commitment of being non partisan. Whereas the current title raises severe questions regarding said commitment. Furthermore despite extensive covering of violence perpetrated against Armenians and Greeks Wikipedia fails to show even a fraction of the commitment and care for these events upon the what does qualify as genocide against the Muslim population of the balkans, despite the number of fatalities being according to some accounts more than double those of the Armenians and Greeks combined.Glossing over and even outright failing to mention massacres which took place such as the massacre of Muslims and Jews when Thessaloniki was taken by Greek forces or the war crimes committed against captured pows such as when pows had crosses scored across their foreheads by Bulgarian forces or even the massacres of Muslims upon the island of Crete which had a high Muslims population. presents itself as a quite frankly disgusting and dishonest representation of history and feeds into nationalist narratives that massacres against Muslims and Jewish populations were limited and ignores the reality of events. The state of this Wikipedia article especially when the violence perpetrated against Greeks and Armenians is so extensively covered is shameful and may raise questions regarding antisemitism and Islamophobia within the ranks of Wikipedia editors. This article is in need of urgent attention and needs at least the same attention which pages upon the killings of other ethnic groups as it will provide much needed prelude and context into the actions of the committee of union and progress aswell as addressing the realities of history. 92.40.197.50 (talk) 19:34, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Then by that logic the Armenian and Greek genocide articles should be retitled to the persecution of ottoman greeks/ Armenians. I hope you do understand that my only complaint isn’t about the title of said article however it does at least in part serve to tone down the severity of the events which took place 92.40.197.55 (talk) 23:58, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Then by that logic the Armenian and Greek genocide articles should be retitled to the persecution of ottoman greeks/ Armenians. I hope you do understand that my only complaint isn’t about the title of said article however it does at least in part serve to tone down the severity of the events which took place 92.40.197.55 (talk) 23:58, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that yourself and other Wikipedia moderators have failed to address such concerns nor engage with me in a proper manner really speaks for itself 92.40.197.222 (talk) 21:02, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please may someone change the death toll back to how it was before
literally every other language version of this page does not state the death toll is “up to 2 million” even in the section regarding casualties it states that it is not that low. Furthermore the edit of “up to 2 million” was made in response to someone changing the death toll to 5.5 million rather than up to 5.5 million. Such an edit of two million was made by a Wikipedia account titled “neo wikipedist” and referred to the edit as “some muslimz” and furthermore went into use the skull emoji. I heavily advise that someone change the death toll to what it previously once was 148.252.146.29 (talk) 01:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following is a translated extract from the Arabic version of the same page:
Michael Mann stated in the 1914 Carnegie Foundation report that those acts were described as widespread murderous ethnic cleansing unprecedented in Europe.It is estimated that 4.4 million Muslims lived in the Ottoman-controlled areas of the Balkans at the turn of the 20th century.According to Maria Todorova, more than a million Muslims left the Balkans in the last 30 years of the 19th century.Between 1912 and 1926 nearly 2.9 million Muslims were killed or forced to immigrate to Turkey.It is estimated that 2.5 million Muslims died in Anatolia during World War I and the Turkish War of Independence. 148.252.146.29 (talk) 01:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those figure makes no sense. Michael Mann did not write the 1914 Carnegie Foundation report, he wrote "The Dark Side of Democracy Explaining Ethnic Cleansing" (2005), he acknowledges the bad source but uses it. The only source used in the article for the death toll of the whole period is McCarthy who as you can read denies the Armenian genocide and probably exaggerated:
"Justin McCarthy is an apologist for the Turkish state and supports the official version of history, which denies the Armenian genocide. He thus might have exaggerated the number of Muslim victims in the Balkans in order to underplay the number of Armenian victims in Anatolia. However, Michael Mann argues that, even if these numbers were reduced by 50%, the number of Muslim victims in the Balkan “would still horrify”."-A Companion to the Anthropology of the Middle East (2015) Edited By Soraya Altorki (The Chapter is Rethinking the “Post‐Ottoman”: Anatolian Armenians as an Ethnographic Perspective By Hakem Al‐Rustom.), page 474.
"Roger Owen and Şevket Pamuk estimate that during the last decade of the Ottoman Empire (1912–1922) when the Balkan Wars, the First World War and the War of Independence took place in areas later to become part of Turkey "Total casualties, military and civilian, of Muslims during this decade are estimated as close to two million. The historian Mark Biondich estimates that from 1878 to 1912 up to two million Muslims left the Balkans either voluntarily or involuntarily, and when adding Muslims casualties in the Balkans in 1912 and 1923 within the context of those killed or expelled the total figure far exceeded some three million."
In fact these two sources are problematic as the first source includes military as well as civilian casualties and indeed includes casualties not just deaths in addition to it's exclusive focus on Anatolia, future Turkish territory (This source is especially problematic as it is not clear that all of the deaths in these casualties are murders (I include death induced by deportation and the like.) or death by disease and starvation and the like which may be the case as the blockade of Germany and Austria-Hungary was very effective for example. Furthermore it is unclear who murdered them. In the subsequent figures I just assume all deaths are murders by non-muslim forces.). Assuming more civilian casualties resulted then 1,500,000 civilian casualties and assuming more wounded than death then perhaps between 675,000 and 700,000. The second has exclusive focus on the Balkans and the three million figure includes the two million voluntarily or otherwise leaving and of course includes those expelled between 1912 and 1923. If you use your brain then the figure between 1912 and 1923 would be around 1,300,000. Again not all of these were killed (I cannot evaluate how many.) and on the assumption that more people are expelled than killed then 600,000-650,000 would appropriate. Thus the appropriate figure between 1912 and 1923 is between 1,275,000 and 1,350,000.
In the fair assumption that McCarthy is exaggerating then take 75% (Much more than Mann's proposal.) of the 5,000,000 figure which gives 3,750,000. Subtract the 1912-1923 figures and you get between 2,400,000 and 2,475,000. That is between 1821 and 1923 between 2,400,000 and 2,475,000 muslims were murdered.
If you take Mann's proposal of 50% of 5,000.000 it results in 2,500,000. Subtract the 1912-1923 figures and you get between 1,115,000 and 1,225,000. That is between 1821 and 1923 between 1,115,000 and 1,225,000 were murdered.
As a conclusion then people really need to properly read the sources. It is full of exaggeration and arguably downplaying or denying Christian genocides and massacres. For example, muslim society may have been incensed against Armenians because of the Balkan Wars but Armenians were being massacred for decades by this point (See Hamidian massacres (1894-1896).) and that model of governance was promoted since the 1690s (See War, State and the Privatisation of Violence in the Ottoman Empire (2020) By Tolga U. Esmer.). This is not at all to condone any of this however the article seems more than a bit myopic. John Not Real Name (talk) 20:13, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I want to amend my statements. "That is between 1821 and 1923 between 2,400,000 and 2,475,000 muslims were murdered." should be That is between 1821 and 1912 between 2,400,000 and 2,475,000 muslims were murdered.
"That is between 1821 and 1923 between 1,115,000 and 1,225,000 were murdered." should be That is between 1821 and 1912 between 1,115,000 and 1,225,000 were murdered. John Not Real Name (talk) 20:31, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I misunderstood your comment I thought you were asking me to prove a blockade was in place which I thought was a bit absurd. There was a blockade and I would recommend this article: ( Great Famine of Mount Lebanon ). Although it is NOT accepted as a genocide by any government, it is being pushed for as the ottoman government was directing grain shipments away from the people. Lebanon was the most affected of course but I would not be surprised if it affected Anatolia given the starvation levels amongst all the Central Powers. It is odd that no-one seems to mention it when half of the Pre-War Maronite population was decimated during the War. John Not Real Name (talk) 16:39, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion clearly dead and going nowhere, I suppose the article is ok and should be left alone as it is
Casualties mean deaths. Biondich talks about how he arrived at that number, not that casualties include those that are expelled. Biondich’s numbers also have a more limited time frame. Owen's book also have a more limited time frame. It says "during this decade". Kaser's numbers are from 1820 to 1920. I'm restoring the previous version. Bogazicili (talk) 11:05, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Theofunny, you have cited an entire book for the sentence you added: However, others have accused McCarthy of exaggerating the number of Muslim victims in the Balkans.[1] Can you provide a page number for this claim? Bogazicili (talk) 11:18, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Justin McCarthy is an apologist for the Turkish state and supports the official version of history, which denies the Armenian genocide. He thus might have exaggerated the number of Muslim victims in the Balkans in order to underplay the number of Armenian victims in Anatolia. However, Michael Mann argues that, even if these numbers were reduced by 50%, the number of Muslim victims in the Balkan “would still horrify” (Mann 2005: 113). I advocate the centrality of juxtaposing the ethnic cleansing of Balkan Muslims with the Armenian genocide as an intertwined history of the two victim populations; the occurrence of one should be taken as denying the other." Page 474, by Hakem Al Rustom Theofunny (talk) 11:57, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"In the period between 1878 and 1912, as many as two million Muslims emigrated voluntarily or involuntarily from the Balkans. When one adds those who were killed or expelled between 1912 and 1923, the number of Muslim casualties from the Balkan far exceeds three million. By 1923 fewer than one million remained in the Balkans."
I now realize now that Owen's book had a more limited time frame and should not be included but why would Mark Biondich add those "killed or expelled" to those Muslims who emigrated to mean deaths. As I see it from a neutral viewpoint, he refers to the reduction of Balkan Muslims as "casualties from the Balkans".
Casualties mean deaths. The way I read it, he talks about how he calculated that number. If you have any further doubts, you can ask it in: Wikipedia:Teahouse or Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard. You can give the source and the quote from the source, and ask what they think.
Kaser says: "estimations speak about 5 million casualties and the same number of displaced persons"
Upto because McCarthy is an unreliable source and Kaser most probably takes the estimates from McCarthy. In my view, it should up Upto 5.5 not only 5. Theofunny (talk) 11:59, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Someone else has mentioned that the figure often includes dead and missing (Not necessarily the same thing. It however does make one question the results if the margin of error can be as high as 400,000.). The 5,000,000 figure is wrong for deaths at least. It is also rather hard to believe that an equal amount were killed or fled (I guess it is possible.). John Not Real Name (talk) 16:43, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When giving or contesting number of dead or displaced, be careful about dates and regions. Whether it's Balkans only or includes other areas. Whether from 1820 to 1920, or 1878 to 1912, or 1912 to 1923. Bogazicili (talk) 15:31, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Mark Biondich does not have a claim about deaths, covering around 1820 to 1920 period. Or if he does, please provide the source. Include the page number and quote please. Bogazicili (talk) 16:30, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
He has for deaths and displacement combined from 1878 to 1923.
The road from Berlin to Lausanne was littered with millions of casualties. Between 1878 and 1912, millions of Balkan Muslims emigrated or were forced from the region. When one adds up those who were killed or expelled between the Balkan Wars (1912–13) and Greco-Turkish War (1919–22), the number of Balkan-Muslim casualties may have exceeded three million. By 1923, fewer than one million Muslims remained in the Balkans
You can use it as an additional assessment for the period in question. People use Wikipedia as if the conclusion is everything but go ahead and source it for the Wars in question. John Not Real Name (talk) 16:45, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To add to this discussion, I feel that McCarthy’s figures deserve a place in the infobox now, see here;
Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922 is a book that has gone through extensive evaluation by scholarship and by all means successfully passed the peer review process. Historian Dennis P. Hupchick generally left a positive review of the book, stating: 'the statistical data appear generally valid. McCarthy succeeds in providing factual material for bringing the European historiography of the later Ottoman Empire into more objective balance.'
Historian Michael Robert Hickock too had an overall positive view of Death and Exile despite him criticizing specific aspects of the book, particularly regarding the proving of governmental intent for the massacres that occurred. However, he agrees McCarthy undeniably proved the existence of extensive Muslim suffering in this period: 'Professor McCarthy does an excellent service to both the general reader and the scholars of the region with this survey of human suffering... Although he succeeds in recounting the plight of Muslim communities, he is less successful at demonstrating state policy or proving intent... The question of intent underlies the book's biggest flaw.”
Bulgarian Historian Georgi Zelengora accepts the book as academically reliable and cites it in his own works; he had this to say about various Bulgarian groups who criticized Death and Exile: Translated: 'Justin McCarthy's “Death and Exile”, in which [many] Bulgarian readers learned about the crimes committed against Muslims by their homeland for the first time, has been translated into Bulgarian in 2010. Patriotic organizations have declared the book anti-Bulgarian. Semi-educated journalists and third grade politicians started disputing the author's professionalism, showing they have zero knowledge on the topic of demographics.'
Historian Kemal Karpat, in his review of the book, wrote: 'This is the first well-documented and comprehensive Western account of the treatment of Ottoman Muslims from the 1820s to 1919-1922. The scope of the book, its vast documentation, and the author's efforts to remain objective and impartial in analyzing little known events that most other Western scholars have ignored are praiseworthy.'
Historian Robert Olson praised the work as well, saying: 'Justin McCarthy's solid demographic work contributes to achieving a better balance and understanding that he so ardently desires for the history of these regions and peoples.'
Historian Donald W. Bleacher, who is a critic of McCarthy's stance on the Armenian Genocide, still praised Death and Exile as a high-quality work of historiography: 'Justin McCarthy has, along with other historians, provided a necessary corrective to much of the history produced by scholars of the Armenian genocide in the United States. McCarthy demonstrates that not all of the ethnic cleansing and ethnic killing in the Ottoman Empire in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries followed the model often posited in the West, whereby all the victims were Christian and all the perpetrators were Muslim. McCarthy has shown that there were mass killings of Muslims and deportations of millions of Muslims from the Balkans and the Caucasus over the course of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.'
Historian Veselin Angelov not only praised Death and Exile but defended Justin McCarthy against critics in general.Translated(sentences might be out of order as I copied them from his interview one by one): 'I find Justin McCarthy's book valuable because it gives a different look at historical events in which there is a lot of mythology and political partisanship. It overturns long-held myths about the last 100 years of the history of the Ottoman Empire... The book is supported by quite solid and irrefutable scientific evidence... Even his critics admit that McCarthy refers to solid sources previously neglected mostly in the Christian West... In all probability, reading Justin McCarthy's book, the majority of Bulgarians will be amazed, horrified and want to throw it away. They will think that it is the product of a huge falsification and a tool of manipulation of Turkish historiography and propaganda. They will not believe anything written in it, with the idea that it is one-sided... I would advise against jumping to conclusions. There are quite a few readers of the English edition, for example, who think that McCarthy is not a "Turkish cannon", but presents a fair story. It helps to correct the injustice committed in the interpretation of history... The [negative] reaction in some Internet forums [to the book] does not surprise me. And from people who haven't read the book. I predict that with the appearance of the book, denials and incantations will multiply. These people, among them politicians, are laymen in historical knowledge, they do not understand that this is a scientific work... many historians consider him an extremely pro-Turkish American researcher, because many of his theses coincide with the views of the Turkish historiography. For me, his behavior is purely professional. It only states the specific facts. I did not get the impression that he underestimated the Christians within the empire or that he tolerated the [crimes of] Muslims. I have already mentioned that he does not omit data about murders, looting and pogroms of Turks, Kurds, Tatars and Circassians against the Christian population. As he himself says, historical correctness demands recognition. And he admits that the Christians have also suffered a great deal. A significant part of his book is devoted to the sufferings of Christians... They label him a "genocide denier", an "agent of the Turkish government" and a "revisionist". In most cases, the attacks against him are not supported by serious scientific arguments. However, there are historians who are positive about the results of McCarthy's scientific pursuits.' 165.237.199.136 (talk) 22:17, 13 December 2024 (UTC)Blocked sockpuppet of User:ByzantineIsNotRoman. – Demetrios1993 (talk) 17:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The siege of Edirne lasted 5 months and the defence was breached at Ayvaz baba. Do you think Shukri pasha sent civilians to defend the fort? Or did the Bulgarians kill civilians in the city, but then dragged the bodies in front of the fort to take a picture? 149.62.207.68 (talk) 08:54, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is nothing supporting the claim that these were civilians, besides the arbitrary title chosen by the user who uploaded the image in Commons back in 2013, and the repetition of that claim in the respective caption that was added by some editors relatively recently. We don't even know if it depicts Muslims; we assume it does (same can be said for other details; such as the location and the date). In short, there is lack of verifiability. In any case, why should we give more prominence to a single group of persecutors (the Bulgarians in this case)? Frankly, I don't think an image is needed in the infobox. Demetrios1993 (talk) 17:29, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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