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Other name

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We need a wider talk on random orher names.... Name in the official local language =,ᒪᓂᑐᐤ-ᐘᐳᐤ Manitou-wapow (Cree)
ᒪᓂᑐᐸ Manidoobaa (Ojibwe)--Moxy- 10:55, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If there's disagreement on what info should go in an article's infobox it should be discussed there.
Breaking the template here is the same as removing cited information across a host of pages without consensus, where a number of removals would be from pages where there is no evidence of any dispute, and for a page that does have a discussion/dispute, breaking the template to remove the rendering of that information doesn't actually engage any of those issues on that specific page towards gaining consensus.For example, I don't see any evidence of an ongoing edit war for BC, Nfld, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, etc (that I've spot checked), so why are we breaking those pages template?
If there's a dispute about what names are official for Manitoba, then just bring it up there. And there really shouldn't be disputes about official names, they're official and therefore readily sourced. For example, at Manitoba's official register we see only "Manitoba" and nothing else. So unless there's an official provincial source clearly showing defacto official usage, then it's pretty cut and dry. trackratte (talk) 11:21, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
We did have talks....led us to this point.-Moxy- 20:31, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Leave out the parameter. We already have 'other languages' mentioned in the infoboxes of each province & territory, where required. We don't need the 'name' of provinces/territories in any other language & should match'em with what's in the article title. GoodDay (talk) 15:55, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Language spoken and what a place is called are two completely different issues. Also, certain places have two or more equally valid official / legal names which are a matter of fact and should be presented as befits an encyclopedia.
Now, individual pages can have consensus to display different things, but the fact for this template is that there are multiple names for certain place and so the template must be able to display that information.
The existence of a given parameter doesn't force every page to fill it with information, clearly. trackratte (talk) 16:16, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
We already have 'other languages' listed in the infoboxes. We don't need the name of the topic shown at the top of the infobox, in any version accept what the article title is. GoodDay (talk) 16:25, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, the parameter is for the other (equally valid/official) name of a place, not the language spoken in that place. They are not mutually redundant parameters, which is probably why all templates for places have some sort of "other name" parameter, such as the bodies of water template, infobox settlement, infobox country, etc. trackratte (talk) 16:42, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
We match the article title, that should suffice. GoodDay (talk) 16:44, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It might suffice in certain articles, but not for others. Having a parameter in a template doesn't force all pages to fill it, so your proposal for a given page is entirely possible. However, given the wide number of different "place" infobox templates and that they all have this same type of "other name" parameter underlines that these "place" templates require the parameter. And it's up to individual page communities to decide how or if to use it. trackratte (talk) 16:50, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Let's then decide on the appropriate place, to have such a discussion concerning the Canadian provinces & territories. GoodDay (talk) 17:00, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Still no sources claiming these are official alternative names......hard to have 12 different names when a place is officially unilingual. Very undue and bias to list just random names. Parameter = native_name = Name in the official local language...like Russian Federation vs Российская Федерация. Sources sources sources --Moxy- 20:31, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, the only bilingual province is New Brunswick. GoodDay (talk) 21:06, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@GoodDay: There are four jurisdictions where government documents regularly use a non-English name: Québec, Nouveau-Brunswick, Territoires du Nord-Ouest, and ᓄᓇᕗᑦ. I think the other_names parameter should be used for those four cases. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 18:07, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'd stick with just the english version, as this is english language Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 22:08, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bug in population total and estimate, and placement of their refs

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Greetings and felicitations. The references for the fields "population_total" and "population_est" are preceded by a space, which violates MOS:CITEPUNCT. Example from Quebec: 

Population (2021)
 • Total 8,501,833 [2]
 • Estimate (Q4 2022) 8,751,352 [3]

(This is the same type of bug as the one I posted in Template talk:Infobox drug#Template-protected edit request on 7 March 2023, so the same solution may apply, or at least help.) — DocWatson42 (talk) 05:21, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Fixed Moxy- 05:45, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. ^_^ — DocWatson42 (talk) 05:47, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Undocumented parameter

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Hello! How to make a undocumented parameter visible in the infobox? I would like to add an Ontario nickname.

2804:14C:58:5564:7553:605B:6F58:7DC9 (talk) 22:32, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is already a parameter for "motto". Magnolia677 (talk) 22:59, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Motto and nickname are different things. 187.38.62.138 (talk) 00:14, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That parameter is not documented because it does not currently exist in the template code. If you believe it ought to, you'd need to gain consensus for that viewpoint. Why do you feel this would be beneficial? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:34, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nicknames of cities, provinces or states are important because they "reveal" how the inhabitants see the place. Many nicknames "translate" what the place is better than the official name (for example: The City That Never Sleeps or The Melting Pot for New York City). Locale nicknames are documented in numerous articles and in different languages. The Ontario article in Spanish, for example, already mentions the province's nickname: The Heartland. 2804:14C:58:5564:B96F:72A:9246:BF63 (talk) 01:18, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The problem that tends to arise is that there are many potential options, with varying level of sourcing quality, and without space to explain - this doesn't translate well into the proposed format. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:32, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I feel the leed is a better place for this information. Do you have an example where you would use this new feature? --Trialpears (talk) 01:40, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's okay to have a lot of options for nicknames. In the New York City article, for example, there are three options plus a link to other nicknames. In Ontario, isn't "The Heartland" Province the best known nickname? 2804:14C:58:5564:B96F:72A:9246:BF63 (talk) 02:17, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Is it? A quick search suggests that name is also used for Manitoba as well as some international provinces. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:47, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My search engine shows many results relating "The Heartland Province" to the province of Ontario. Could you please send me a font that shows Manitoba related to the nickname?
I don't see a problem with two different places having the same nicknames. São Paulo, in Brazil, is known as The City That Never Sleeps, as well as several other cities with the same nickname. This does not invalidate the nickname for New York or any other place that shares the nickname.
The fact is, the province of Ontario is known by one or more nicknames and these nicknames are important cultural information. If so many localities have their nicknames documented on Wikipedia, why can't Ontario? 2804:14C:58:5564:B96F:72A:9246:BF63 (talk) 03:32, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
One of Manitoba's nicknames is "Canada's Heart Beats", it is similar to "The Heartland Province", therefore the provinces do not have identical nicknames. 187.38.62.138 (talk) 03:51, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not a nickname...it's a slogan. This is exactly why it's not used. Moxy- 04:12, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'll use one of New York's nicknames again to make my point: "The City That Never Sleeps" is a slogan. And this slogan is also a nickname for several cities in the world. Wikipedia itself recognizes "The Heartland Province" as a nickname for the province of Ontario in another article with the appropriate references: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_provincial_and_territorial_nicknames_in_Canada
Province of Ontario articles in other languages also mention "The Heartland Province as a nickname". 2804:14C:58:5564:B96F:72A:9246:BF63 (talk) 04:58, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The reference used in that article is the "CashNetUSA Blog", which is definitely not an "appropriate reference". And that's often the level of sourcing that accompanies nicknames, unfortunately. This example referring to Manitoba as Canada's heartland province is slightly better, but not much. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:28, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to solve the "other name" debate

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Following the discussion at Talk:Prince Edward Island#Government websites are real sources it's come to my attention that the "other name" parameter has been a point of contention for quite some time, and I've come up with what I think is a fair compromise. My proposal is this:

Deprecate the other-name parameter as it is currently used. The provincial infobox should only have one name at the very top, as in Ontario and Manitoba. Since there is a sizeable number of editors who feel names in other languages are important to have in the infobox, we add a new parameter that sits under "Demonym(s)" and "Official languages" that contains this information. If we wanted to take it a step further, we can determine right from the get-go which languages are supposed to be included, and create a language-specific parameter for each one (i.e. french-name=, mikmaq-name=) that way their purpose is totally clear. I'm hoping not to start a big argument over this, but it keeps coming up over the course of a number of years so it surely must be dealt with eventually. Pinging editors from above discussion: @Moxy @Simonm223 @Ivanvector -- MediaKyle (talk) 11:36, 13 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • Strong Oppose this seems like constructing a custom rule just to prioritize English names in a multilingual country. Simonm223 (talk) 12:05, 13 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • What problem are you trying to solve? Are you saying the infobox header looks bad with the French name or that the French name isn't notable? —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 15:05, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    This is about wanting to exclude Indigenous placenames. Simonm223 (talk) 15:40, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    What this is about is discussions like the one at the top of this talk page, and the edit history of the provincial infobox template which indicates this has been a consistent problem for years, and a major point of contention for the WikiProject. When editors disagree on something and it stays an issue for this long, I think it ought to be solved. I don't appreciate the suggestion from Simonm223 that I have some ulterior motive here, when in fact I am trying to come up with a solution that keeps these place names in the infobox while addressing the concerns of editors who disagree with the placement of them. I was hoping for some answers based on solutions rather than emotions. MediaKyle (talk) 15:46, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion that led directly to the creation of this proposal was a discussion about removing the Mi'kmaw name for Prince Edward Island from the infobox. I'm not suggesting ulterior motives. I'm describing recent history. Simonm223 (talk) 15:52, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Apologies if I misinterpreted that. You're right, but that's why I'm suggesting an additional parameter in the languages section of the infobox. That way, we can eliminate this years-long back-and-forth of adding and removing alternate names from infoboxes, as we have a specific spot for these names that is documented properly. MediaKyle (talk) 15:57, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I still don't understand what we're trying to solve. What is the problem with the status quo that necessitates a change? —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 22:42, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose the "language-specific parameter" aspect of the proposal. There are just too many languages in Canada to make this practicable. We don't want to get into debates as to which Indigenous languages are important enough to get a template parameter. I'm ambivalent about a new parameter that displays farther down in the infobox. It seems to me that the disputes are about whether the names should be there at all, not about how high up in the infobox they appear. Personally I would include Indigenous and French names, but WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE is the applicable guideline, and the question is "Are non-English names 'key facts' about the province?" Indefatigable (talk) 16:16, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I would argue that, in PEI, where there is widespread recognition of the Mi'kmaw name by the PEI government, the name for this region of Mi'kma'ki is a key fact. Simonm223 (talk) 19:06, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's only one thing that is an appropriate response to one editor's crusade to purge Indigenous names from our articles, and it's not a change to infoboxes. But since we're already here, the proposal is going about this wrong: proposals such as this should not start with an entirely novel approach and then try to justify it; we should examine how these infoboxes are being used broadly and adopt consistent standards. Every one of the thirteen province/territory articles (other than British Columbia, I don't know why) already follow this pattern: English name at the top, French name below if it's different (this is why Ontario and Manitoba are poor examples to cherrypick for this), followed by names for the territory in locally-relevant languages (presently only Nova Scotia, Nunavut, PEI, and Yukon include these). Whether or not to include other languages, as well as which other languages to include, is settled case-by-case through discussion. What problem are we trying to solve by changing this? We can just fix the BC infobox and carry on. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 19:18, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    To be clear - you're of the position that all 13 translations of the Northwest territories and all 218 Indigenous translations of Ontario should be listed? Moxy🍁 20:48, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    This is a straw man argument; I said no such thing, and if all you have is more of this logical nonsense I'm not going to waste my time responding to you. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 21:11, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Asking for clarification. Are you saying we should list officially recognize languages or all that pertain to Indigenous people. Moxy🍁 21:15, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Can you explain your position, Moxy? It seems to be the assumption is that you want alternate names out of the infoboxes altogether. Is that true, and why? What do you think about putting them farther down in the infobox?
    Also, it's worth noting that since Indefatigable's reply, I also noticed MOS:INFOBOXGEO which states "Alternative or native names can appear beneath [the header] if beneficial. Extensive historic names are often better in a second infobox, as at Augsburg." I don't see a second infobox at Augsburg though so I don't know exactly what this implies. MediaKyle (talk) 21:33, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    I have no problems with officially recognized languages.. I do have a problem with undue weight of adding names with soft reconciliation. Putting up a few signs is not the same as providing government services in an official language or capacity. Soft reconciliation is when the government does a symbolic gesture versus a legislative gesture. We should not imply to our readers that there's an official status when there is none.Moxy🍁 21:40, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    While infobox headers for administrative subdivisions usually use official names, PEI might warrant an exception because the article is about both the island as a province and the island as a geographical feature. If the name Epekwitk has been used for most of the island's known history, the name deserves prominence even if it not in the provincial government's founding documents. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 23:01, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    Looks like I was completely wrong about Nova Scotia .... I just got an email from Leah Martin department regarding the fact that there is a new language act. I search for something like this four five days ago before commenting at the Nova Scotia article..... I couldn't find anything now today I find this just released two days ago Moxy🍁 23:11, 14 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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